Optimal Protein?

[Julie G]

I know we've spoken about this before, but the topic happens to dovetail with so many current threads (and personal conversations I've been having with various members) that I wanted to delve further into it here...

It was eye-opening for me to read Dr. Gundry's advice (from Russ) re. the need for protein and more:

IGF-1 – Mine was high in range (172). He recommends lower is better as lower is strongly associated with longevity. He says it’s another sign of too much meat. As I understand, methionine in meat turns on mTOR receptors and we want them off. Can take glycine to block or just reduce meat (he says animal protein <10%)

During our conversation yesterday, Russ reiterated that Dr. Gundry recommends only 20 grams of animal protein per day. Twenty grams !!! To put that into perspective, a 6 oz piece of salmon has 34 grams. I couldn't help but question that and Russ reiterated in an email:

Went back and listened to actual recording, and indeed that's what he said. He begins that argument by claiming that Weston Price said in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration that 1 egg per 24 hrs is sufficient for humans. I certainly don't recall that, though? Then he translates into the 20g which he says in 1 can of sardines or 2.5 eggs. He talks about how the body is "incredibly efficient recycler" of proteins, so fresh supply isn't needed as much as we think.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this...it certainly addresses the TMAO issue AND gluconeogenesis, huh?

[circular]

Sorry, but after that one my thoughts are I am totally screwed because every food and food group and food combination has problems

[Tincup]

Julie,

In the Gundry "Matrix" FB group, a couple of his patients have reported Gundry suggested 20g protein for them. One wondered about gluconeogenesis.

I wrote the following post, which includes support for the ~20g/day number, my take is you better be well keto adapted 'cause if your body is using protein to support glucose for your brain (assuming you are also LC) you'll be consuming a lot of your muscle protein. In this debate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJYlXmfb08M T Colin Cambell makes the argument for very low protein.

Here is my post to the Gundry Matrix group:

From a fuel perspective, the brain is the crucial element. The brain requires something like the equivalent of 120 grams of glucose a day to function. This can be supplied by stored glycogen from the liver, carbs you consume, protein you eat or from your muscles or from ketones, if your body is keto-adapted (also called fat adapted or metabolically flexible). Keeping the brain fed is a high priority for the body. If you are well keto-adapted, then ketones can supply a very significant portion of this requirement. What you want to watch out for is eating enough protein during the several week adaptation process so your body can use protein you consume rather than your muscle protein for fuel. Once well adapted, your protein requirement drops significantly. Here is more thoughts on gluconeogenesis on a ketogenic low carb diet. In this paper, http://www.coconutketones.com/pdfs/Cahi ... n_1967.pdf They fasted 3 obese non-diabetic subjects for 4-6 weeks. During the last week, the subjects excreted an average of 3.3 and 3.9 g/24hr of urinary nitrogen. If you convert nitrogen to protein at a rate of 6.25 g protein/ gm nitrogen you get a range of protein catabolization of 20.6 to 24.4 grams of protein/day. So a keto-adapted person would not need to consume a huge amount of protein to cover this loss. Secondly, in this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 7-0253.pdf they fasted obese non-diabetic subjects for 60 days. Then gave them a bolus of insulin and measured their glucose & etc. They also noted their mental state. The lowest level of serum glucose was 9 mg/dL. Because their beta-OHB (ketone) levels were so high, though they decreased somewhat with the insulin, the subjects maintained normal mental functioning (this should be important to someone who is hypoglycemic). In this podcast http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/show ... interview/ Dr. Runyan, an MD and T1, talks about the above two papers and how he is able to complete in Ironman Triathalons without glucose fueling. He also mentions he's reduced his "low" episodes to 4/year from several/week with a ketogenic diet. Jimmy Moore's Keto Clarity podcasts with various experts (Runyan is one) expound more on this #847 http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/archive/ Knowing what your serum ketone level is can be useful. Levels above 0.5 mmol are considered "thereaputic" (a person fasting for a long time would get to a level of 6-8 mmol). You can measure with a Precision Xtra meter. Strips in the US are around $6/each, but from Canada they can be had for around $3 from http://www.universaldrugstore.com/medic ... ne%20strip Moore's book, Keto Clarity, is a good reference.

[circular]

Oh the rolling eyes aren't at you Julienne but at our predicaments

I must admit though, I tend to tune out Weston Price references. I'm sure they have a lot to say that's valuable, but in the past I went to a WP meeting and I've rarely seen such an unhealthy looking group of people. Then there was all this about eating a lot of meat cooked at high heat and cheese and ... and I just thought these people will think whatever they want. Perhaps they've evolved in their thinking as a group? No doubt they are much more diverse than I'm giving them credit for and I should stop tuning them out?

[DollyWagon]

Human body cannot be trained to maintain a higher metabolism, study suggests
Date:
November 6, 2014
Source:
Obesity Society
Summary:
Researchers explored whether high- or low- protein diets might lead to less weight gain when consuming excess calories due to the ability of the body to burn extra energy with a high-protein diet. They found that study participants all gained similar amounts of weight regardless of diet composition; however, there was a vast difference in how the body stored the excess calories. Those who consumed normal- and high- protein diets stored 45% of the excess calories as lean tissue, or muscle mass, while those on the low-protein diet stored 95% of the excess calories as fat.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 131522.htm

it depends of activity levels and age and so read carefully

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/784.full.pdf

[Hepoberman]

Gundry specifically limits ANIMAL protein. This does not include protein from non animal sources. He will not eat chicken! One of the hardest things I've had to do is quit eating most meat. I loved T-bones, but no more...

Gluconeogenesis is really a cortisol driven phenonema (in a low carb context). You won't make a dent in serum glucose by limiting protein (I know the keto people think this). Once glycogen is depleted, cortisol will trigger glucose production and its going to steal substrate from muscle mass if it has to (whether or not the person has been eating a high protein diet).

I believe 50% of our protein should come from the sea. A big portion of our dietary protein should come from Gelatin as well. This doesn't leave much room for muscle meats.

I believe total protein should be around 1 g per Kilo of body weight but this varies depending on how much physical work you do. The more we work our muscles the more protein we need. When I work hard, I eat more protein and I stimulate a bit extra insulin to help cellular uptake.

My IGF-1 is still too high...

Hep

[Tincup]

A Gundry patient posted

Dr gundry was very clear with me that 6 oz is more protein than I need in a day. I wrote down that it should be the a total of 3 eggs or 4 oz of fish (I don't eat meat but I'm figuring the oz count is probably the same.... I have not managed to get my protein down to 4 oz (or 20 grams) a day yet.

With Gundry's anti-lectin protocol (attached), concentrated sources of non animal (incl fish) protein are hard to come by. I'm pretty sure he's saying 20g plus what you get from your non-starchy veggies. He is really into what is effectively a CR approach with very little concentrated calories except from EVOO or coconut oil for E4's. He personally eats one meal a day for 4-5 months a year.

[Stavia]

Gluconeogenesis is really a cortisol driven phenonema (in a low carb context). You won't make a dent in serum glucose by limiting protein (I know the keto people think this). Once glycogen is depleted, cortisol will trigger glucose production and its going to steal substrate from muscle mass if it has to (whether or not the person has been eating a high protein die

Hep

Hep, please explain? My biochemistry is so rusty...

[Hepoberman]

Gluconeogenesis is really a cortisol driven phenonema (in a low carb context). You won't make a dent in serum glucose by limiting protein (I know the keto people think this). Once glycogen is depleted, cortisol will trigger glucose production and its going to steal substrate from muscle mass if it has to (whether or not the person has been eating a high protein die

Hep

Hep, please explain? My biochemistry is so rusty...

Cortisol is a powerful (catabolic?) glucocorticoid which is released from the adrenal cortex when we're stressed or have low serum glucose. So many of us have had chronic high glucose for so long that our "sensors" for low glucose kick in and we produce glucose when it isn't necessary. I think this is mostly because when the liver is insulin resistant and low on glycogen it is especially ready to act on signals to produce glucose.

I've found ethanol to be effective at shutting down gluconeogenesis. Alcoholics are notorious for hypoglycemia. For example, when I am in ketosis, my glucose rises if my wife winks at me. Stress, mental and physical, always cause a cortisol bump but when the liver is low on glycogen it is really sensitive.

[Stavia]

Thanks Hep. Now what if we are not insulin resistant? Will the cortisol still trigger muscle cannabalism? Why?