It will take less than an hour to watch the videos and go over the studies cited. I'm convinced most people will give up eggs with a thorough review of the data.
How the Egg Board Designs Misleading Studies - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... s25RaOZsFM
Eggs and Cholesterol: Patently False and Misleading Claims - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... g8ASQZ0dZw
Eggs vs. Cigarettes in Atherosclerosis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... O4kdtMq8rs
Who Says Eggs Aren’t Healthy or Safe? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... tGf2FuzKo4
Debunking Egg Industry Myths - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... ZPulhmNEDs
Eggs and Arterial Function - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... uRnT_ojwQU
Eggs and Diabetes - http://nutritionfacts.org/video/eggs-and-diabetes/
" In 2009, Harvard researchers found that a single egg a day or more was associated with an increased risk of Type 2 diabetes in men and women. This finding has since been confirmed in Asia in 2011 and in Europe in 2012. Reducing egg consumption should start early in life, though, as it appears once we get into our 70s, it may be too late." says Michael Greggor, Md.
Egg consumption and risk of type 2 diabetes in men and women. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19017774
CONCLUSIONS:
These data suggest that high levels of egg consumption (daily) are associated with an increased risk of type 2 diabetes in men and women. Confirmation of these findings in other populations is warranted
Egg consumption and the risk of diabetes in adults, Jiangsu, China - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20471806
CONCLUSION:
Egg consumption was positively associated with the risk of diabetes among the Chinese, particularly in women.
High intakes of protein and processed meat associate with increased incidence of type 2 diabetes. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22850191
When protein consumption increased by 5 % of energy at the expense of carbohydrates (HR 1.20; 95 % CI 1.09, 1.33) or fat (HR 1.21; 95 % CI 1.09, 1.33), increased diabetes risk was observed. Intakes in the highest quintiles of processed meat (HR 1.16; 95 % CI 1.00, 1.36; P for trend = 0.01) and eggs (HR 1.21; 95 % CI 1.04, 1.41; P for trend = 0.02) were associated with increased risk
Egg consumption in relation to cardiovascular disease and mortality: the Physicians' Health Study. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18400720
CONCLUSIONS:
Infrequent egg consumption does not seem to influence the risk of CVD in male physicians. In addition, egg consumption was positively related to mortality, more strongly so in diabetic subjects, in the study population.
I hope to build consensus here that APOE 4~s should steer clear of all saturated fat and especially eggs. I want and need counter viewpoints, please express your informed dissent. Lets figure out if we should be eating eggs or not. People need our clear, concise and informed opinions. Hep
Lets talk about eggs
Re: Lets talk about eggs
Like you Hep, I follow Dr. Greggor and respect his opinions. Sometimes he cites old studies that re-enforce his view.
I appreciate Stavia's and Richard's high standards in evaluating studies and medical opinions.
Few studies get replicated these days, maybe because there is only truth, not money to begotten.
Full disclosure, my diet is plant based 90% of the time. I eat salmon a couple of times a month and sometimes cheese sneaks into my enchiladas.
I appreciate Stavia's and Richard's high standards in evaluating studies and medical opinions.
Few studies get replicated these days, maybe because there is only truth, not money to begotten.
Full disclosure, my diet is plant based 90% of the time. I eat salmon a couple of times a month and sometimes cheese sneaks into my enchiladas.
Hep, thanks for this hard work.
As the current entire body of knowledge stands, I'd have to say my interpretation is that a third conclusion is the answer - we don't know.
I personally am taking the middle ground and eating mebbe 6 a week. What I should ve doing is 6 weeks on, test lipids , 6 weeks off, test lipids , mebbe repeat again to demonstrate reproducibility, then decide. RichardS says this protocol has a name, forgot it in my prednisone haze (Painters, builders, repairmen, sanding dust, cant breathe).
As the current entire body of knowledge stands, I'd have to say my interpretation is that a third conclusion is the answer - we don't know.
I personally am taking the middle ground and eating mebbe 6 a week. What I should ve doing is 6 weeks on, test lipids , 6 weeks off, test lipids , mebbe repeat again to demonstrate reproducibility, then decide. RichardS says this protocol has a name, forgot it in my prednisone haze (Painters, builders, repairmen, sanding dust, cant breathe).
Re: Lets talk about eggs
Hep,
Thank you so much for starting this thread. It is definitely worthy of a deep look.
You posted a lot of links, so it will take me a while to dig through it, but based just on the snippets you posted in your message, it seems you are only quoting epidemiological studies. There are human clinical trials on egg consumption out there that should be added to the discussion. The main concerns there are to (1) watch out for those pro-egg studies funded by the egg industry and (2) the undersized studies claiming no harm that did not have enough statistical power to legitimately take that position.
You mentioned in another thread that you are a hyperabsorber of cholesterol. As I mentioned, I tested dietary cholesterol high vs low for myself and did not see a real difference. I have more to learn on the hyperabsorber front, for sure. I would be grateful if you or others could help point me to a good place to start learning about this.
Stavia,
That off-on-off-on personal experiment is called an ABAB design. Often people just do ABA, but you can get more confidence with doing the intervention twice so long as time, patience, resources and often finances permit.
Richard
Thank you so much for starting this thread. It is definitely worthy of a deep look.
You posted a lot of links, so it will take me a while to dig through it, but based just on the snippets you posted in your message, it seems you are only quoting epidemiological studies. There are human clinical trials on egg consumption out there that should be added to the discussion. The main concerns there are to (1) watch out for those pro-egg studies funded by the egg industry and (2) the undersized studies claiming no harm that did not have enough statistical power to legitimately take that position.
You mentioned in another thread that you are a hyperabsorber of cholesterol. As I mentioned, I tested dietary cholesterol high vs low for myself and did not see a real difference. I have more to learn on the hyperabsorber front, for sure. I would be grateful if you or others could help point me to a good place to start learning about this.
Stavia,
That off-on-off-on personal experiment is called an ABAB design. Often people just do ABA, but you can get more confidence with doing the intervention twice so long as time, patience, resources and often finances permit.
Richard
Re: Lets talk about eggs
I greatly appreciate this thread too, Hep. Thank you for beginning the conversation 
I've not worked my way through all of your links...but will.
So much of our bias tends to come from our N=1 results. It looks like you may have searched for links to support that rather than a more neutral search. FWIW, I ate around 2 eggs a day when I yielded a good NMR for a 4/4 in ketosis... so I'm a little skeptical of egg's inherent negative effects.
I've not searched PubMed, but did a quick search of our site and found a few other threads that may add to the conversation:
Eggs: yay or nay?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=627&p=5393&hilit=Eggs#p5393
Egg consumption and CIMT
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=704&p=6611&hilit=Eggs#p6611
Recommend me a list of just 2 (importance of dietary choline):
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=288&hilit=Eggs
New blood test to predict AD (a deficiency of serum phosphatyidylcholine was linked to an increased risk of developing Alzheimer's)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=312&hilit=Howard+Federoff%27s
Could a choline deficiency be driving your high HCY?
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=772&p=7083&hilit=Eggs#p7083
Facilitating the PEMT pathway...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=436&p=3471&hilit=Choline#p3471
Choline, eggs, and heating- what are the facts?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=806&p=7876&hilit=Choline#p7876
I've not worked my way through all of your links...but will.So much of our bias tends to come from our N=1 results. It looks like you may have searched for links to support that rather than a more neutral search. FWIW, I ate around 2 eggs a day when I yielded a good NMR for a 4/4 in ketosis... so I'm a little skeptical of egg's inherent negative effects.
I've not searched PubMed, but did a quick search of our site and found a few other threads that may add to the conversation:
Eggs: yay or nay?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=627&p=5393&hilit=Eggs#p5393
Egg consumption and CIMT
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=704&p=6611&hilit=Eggs#p6611
Recommend me a list of just 2 (importance of dietary choline):
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=288&hilit=Eggs
New blood test to predict AD (a deficiency of serum phosphatyidylcholine was linked to an increased risk of developing Alzheimer's)
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=312&hilit=Howard+Federoff%27s
Could a choline deficiency be driving your high HCY?
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=772&p=7083&hilit=Eggs#p7083
Facilitating the PEMT pathway...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=436&p=3471&hilit=Choline#p3471
Choline, eggs, and heating- what are the facts?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=806&p=7876&hilit=Choline#p7876
Re: Lets talk about eggs
C'mon Hep. Video's like that are based on studies like this…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22882905
…that get a lot of press but are epidemiological and thus easy to shoot holes through. So far, I think the balance of evidence is that natural pastured eggs are very healthy - although certainly understand this would vary by individual. I would also bet that eggs in combination with a 'Standard American Diet" would indeed be bad, and that commercial eggs from grocery stores are also bad.
In my case, I took them out for 3 months and saw absolutely no impact on lipids (still working on) or inflammatory markers (which were already quite good).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22882905
…that get a lot of press but are epidemiological and thus easy to shoot holes through. So far, I think the balance of evidence is that natural pastured eggs are very healthy - although certainly understand this would vary by individual. I would also bet that eggs in combination with a 'Standard American Diet" would indeed be bad, and that commercial eggs from grocery stores are also bad.
In my case, I took them out for 3 months and saw absolutely no impact on lipids (still working on) or inflammatory markers (which were already quite good).
Russ
E3/4
Eat whole, real, flavorful food - fresh and in season... and mix it up once in a while.
E3/4
Eat whole, real, flavorful food - fresh and in season... and mix it up once in a while.
Re: Lets talk about eggs
This would be my question as well. In the studies quoted did they discriminate by pastured / non pastured.Russ wrote:
…that get a lot of press but are epidemiological and thus easy to shoot holes through. So far, I think the balance of evidence is that natural pastured eggs are very healthy - although certainly understand this would vary by individual. I would also bet that eggs in combination with a 'Standard American Diet" would indeed be bad, and that commercial eggs from grocery stores are also bad.
I love me some foie gras (can't spell it evidently), but farm raised fish, chickens, duck are highly dependent upon what you feed them.
Veges in seems to reduce the negative impacts that eggs can have... but I haven't looked at the studies. Do they make any discrimination?
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Hepoberman
- Contributor
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Re: Lets talk about eggs
Eggs are definitely a good source of nutrition. When it comes to lipids, remember the ABAB methodology? There is no doubt everything Dr. Greggor says and does in those videos is biased against eggs, after all he advocates no animal products at all. But...
C'mon guys, we need to quote him, cite his source and prove him wrong with evidence based science. He's got a ton of references in these videos and I'm still deciphering all this. So far, he's made a solid case that I can't beat. Most of those videos are only a couple of minutes long.
What exactly does he say that is incorrect and why? Can we prove it?
C'mon guys, we need to quote him, cite his source and prove him wrong with evidence based science. He's got a ton of references in these videos and I'm still deciphering all this. So far, he's made a solid case that I can't beat. Most of those videos are only a couple of minutes long.
What exactly does he say that is incorrect and why? Can we prove it?
Re: Lets talk about eggs
One of the classic studies quoted in the first video is this one:
Full text: http://www.jci.org/articles/view/117705
Effects of dietary cholesterol and fat saturation on plasma lipoproteins in an ethnically diverse population of healthy young men.
It appears to be a very well controlled study that holds constant everything except dietary cholesterol (200mg vs 600mg) and the ratio of SFA:PUFA (0.8 vs 0.3). The cholesterol effect is robust while the SFA/PUFA effect is strangely quite modest. The thing that bothers me is that they did not identify what foods were being given to the subjects, not even a reference to another study using these diets. They gave them 3 meals and a snack every day. Perhaps it is picking a nit, but they way I read this study, I'm assuming most of the increase in cholesterol is coming from eggs in order to minimize the effect on their closely balanced macronutrient ratios, but I can't be sure. If they are cooking all this stuff ahead of time, it is entirely possible that the cholesterol became oxidized which, based on my reading of the literature, has a huge impact on these blood measures compared to non-oxidized cholesterol. The study may be spot on, but I have reservations.
There are too many studies to go through each of them quickly, but I am going to see about some of the other human trials quoted.
Full text: http://www.jci.org/articles/view/117705
Effects of dietary cholesterol and fat saturation on plasma lipoproteins in an ethnically diverse population of healthy young men.
It appears to be a very well controlled study that holds constant everything except dietary cholesterol (200mg vs 600mg) and the ratio of SFA:PUFA (0.8 vs 0.3). The cholesterol effect is robust while the SFA/PUFA effect is strangely quite modest. The thing that bothers me is that they did not identify what foods were being given to the subjects, not even a reference to another study using these diets. They gave them 3 meals and a snack every day. Perhaps it is picking a nit, but they way I read this study, I'm assuming most of the increase in cholesterol is coming from eggs in order to minimize the effect on their closely balanced macronutrient ratios, but I can't be sure. If they are cooking all this stuff ahead of time, it is entirely possible that the cholesterol became oxidized which, based on my reading of the literature, has a huge impact on these blood measures compared to non-oxidized cholesterol. The study may be spot on, but I have reservations.
There are too many studies to go through each of them quickly, but I am going to see about some of the other human trials quoted.
Re: Lets talk about eggs
Another very well controlled study with subjects grouped by 3/2, 3/3, 3/4 status includes a very informative table reviewing human apoe diet studies. I highlighted the 5 that manipulated dietary cholesterol while trying to hold macronutrient ratios constant:
Two show no significant differences (Boerwinkle et al 1991, Martin et al, 1993). One only significant for E4/4 but not E4/3 (Lehtimaki et al 1992). One that showed an increase in LDL-C for E3 and E4 but not E2 (Gylling et al 1989). Only Miettinen et al 1988 showed a significant (16% higher LDL-C) worsening with a high-cholesterol diet for E3/4 and E4/4 but that was only compared to an E2/2 and E2/3 group (3% higher LDL-C) - no E3/3 subjects.
This looks to me to be an excellent, if not dated review (1998). Are there any newer studies to be added to this collection of human dietary cholesterol studies by apoe status?
Based solely on these studies, I suspect maybe some moderate adverse affects for some E4's, but that it is not consistent. Perhaps it is only a subset with hyperabsorbing tendencies that are driving the few positive results for the E4's, but I don't have any research to quote to support that.
Richard
This looks to me to be an excellent, if not dated review (1998). Are there any newer studies to be added to this collection of human dietary cholesterol studies by apoe status?
Based solely on these studies, I suspect maybe some moderate adverse affects for some E4's, but that it is not consistent. Perhaps it is only a subset with hyperabsorbing tendencies that are driving the few positive results for the E4's, but I don't have any research to quote to support that.
Richard
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