Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
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Stavia
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Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby Stavia » Sun May 17, 2015 6:02 pm

Thanks Michael. For myself, I would need more than your opinion to disregard Cunnane who is one of the top researchers in apoe4 mitochondrial metabolism in the world. Any studies you can offer I will carefully read, because my life literally depends on the path I take. I say this with respect, not with any negative connotations at all. I do welcome you. I understand that you have a wealth of knowledge about CR that you can bring to our attention. However I am wary about blanket extrapolating this work to our apoe4 subset.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby Stavia » Sun May 17, 2015 6:27 pm

Ps. Does NOT need to be now :)
When you have time. We have time :)

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Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby Julie G » Sun May 17, 2015 7:02 pm

Of course: I am not hear as a general-purpose CR evangelist ;) .

This brings us back to Lilly's question. Then, why are you here? I understand that you ARE a CR/life extension expert. You've previously claimed to know little to nothing about the E4 allele. If you are not here in that role...??? :shock:

Michael, we shall hold our collective breath while you put together your unequivocal evidence refuting even the possibility that ketones could act as an alternative brain fuel:
I've realized that there's actually a pretty good reason to think that whatever ketone bodies may or may not do in AD subjects generally or ε4s in particular, they will not help with brain glucose hypometabolism and may even be counterproductive on that front [Emphasis Mine ;)]

Your beautifully constructed sentence, full of imagery, alludes to alternative ropy vines -safety- for our population, which you fail to deliver with this:
I'm unfortunately not sure of a good alternative strategy, tho' I think for reasons I'll also have to put off that "CR proper" (ie, not just sufficient Calories to maintain a "healthy weight") may help if done long-term.

Repeatedly you've stated that certain strategies, benfotiamine and ketosis (thus far) are acceptable risks only IF one is DXed with Alzheimer's. You are aware that Alzheimer's disease is a progressive neurodegenerative disease that is largely considered incurable and ultimately fatal? It takes DECADES to develop the pathology. Treating a thiamine deficiency or providing alternative neuronal fuel at that late stage offers much less hope than doing so before symptoms develop. "CR proper," of course, has it's own set of risks and a similar lack of proof of efficacy for E4s trying to prevent Alzheimer's.

We ARE working on developing prevention strategies although many here (myself included) have already experienced some symptoms of cognitive decline. That prevention/treatment line is very fuzzy. Balancing risk and possibility of reward looks very different depending on where you are sitting, my friend.

I want to believe your intentions for being here are sincere...I'm struggling. I hope you truly will provide evidence to back up your claims; then roll up your proverbial sleeves, and get busy working with those of us who may be on borrowed time.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby MichaelR » Sun May 17, 2015 8:24 pm

Oh, noooo ....


Briefly:

Juliegee wrote:Michael, we shall hold our collective breath while you put together your unequivocal evidence refuting even the possibility that ketones could act as an alternative brain fuel:
I've realized that there's actually a pretty good reason to think that whatever ketone bodies may or may not do in AD subjects generally or ε4s in particular, they will not help with brain glucose hypometabolism and may even be counterproductive on that front [Emphasis Mine ;)]
Julie, and all: I was trying really hard to be as clear as I could that I was definitely not saying definitively, and do not have "unequivocal" evidence, refuting even the possibility that ketones could act as an alternative brain fuel: again: I am saying only that I will present
MichaelR wrote:a pretty good reason to think that whatever ketone bodies may or may not do in AD subjects generally or ε4s in particular, they will not help with brain glucose hypometabolism and may even be counterproductive on that front
... new emphasis mine.

I'm TRYING, folks, but please read me carefully, take those words at face value, and give me the benefit of doubt on good faith — OK?

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Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby Stavia » Sun May 17, 2015 10:46 pm

Michael, you now realise I am sure that this is a highly emotive subject for us because it is central to the issue we face every day "what the heck do I eat?". Some days I am too scared to eat at all (I am e4e4 with both parents, all grandparents and my mother's sister AD.) You need to understand this fear. This is not a pity party, I am calmly explaining why this has been a very emotional thread.
Here's our problem: we need to keep our Hba1c down as low as possible. We have to limit carbohydrates to do this. (I dont eat any starchy carbs at all but tons of salads n veggies) We can't have too much protein because of gluconeogenesis (I aim at 1gm/kg. Overwhelmingly fatty fish cos we need omega 3s). We cant have saturated fat. There's nothing left to eat but mainly fats from nuts, olive oil, avocado and fatty fish. But we need to try and keep our LDLp from blowing out but we are hyperabsorbers. Its incredibly complicated as we are all different and we are all experimenting and testing. Rinse and repeat.
We aren't doing this as a hobby or an interest or a passion or for life extension past what would be our lot if we were not e4.
Its our survival.
We have a seriously broken gene. Some of us both copies. E4e4 women are the most at risk. On this thread its me, Julie and Lilly. We are the most broken.
I repeat: some days I am too scared to eat. Many others have said the same to me. Many of us have cried together and discussed our suicide plans. This is the environment you have entered and I still welcome you if you wish to be part of our community of siblings. If you are not e4 you can be a cousin :)
So......I am very interested to hear your evidence that being in low ketosis for the rest of our lives is dangerous, and what you suggest we can eat instead of the fats I described above, presented in a kind, caring way that will be at a level that will be understandable to all our siblings.
Take you time, we've been working on this for at least the year I've been here plus a few on 23andme prior to the forum.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby ApropoE4 » Mon May 18, 2015 7:23 am

I hope you all realize what's going on:

Group: "We believe in X, even though there is no evidence to support it."

Outsider: "Hey, there's not evidence to support X, and some versions of X are probably harmful, so why are you Xing?"

Group: "Show unequivocal evidence of not X or shut up."

It is not up to MichaelR to present unequivocal evidence of anything, it is up to whoever is making a claim that they're "working on a cure" to show some evidence (other than "I believe it helped me"), and so far no such evidence has been presented.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby SusanJ » Mon May 18, 2015 7:52 am

Ap, I'd say perhaps.

The title of this thread is a bit loaded for bear - think about "unwise bet". That choice of words was provocative, it clearly did provoke. No one likes being called unwise.

So from the sidelines (I have no ketosis pony in this race - don't follow it, don't check ketones, etc), I see this scenario:
- people who have chosen a low-ketosis route
- someone comes and says it's not effective, perhaps dangerous, and oh, BTW unwise
- so the low-ketosis folks are asking for proof - and BTW, I don't feel unwise, I feel better.

But as you point out, and most of this thread points out, there is no evidence either way really.

So aren't we really at a stalemate here? Bottom line is neither sides' arguments can be complete because we lack the appropriate research. Let's admit that much and move on.

What we do have are people who are desperately trying to find a path that helps more than hurts, and some members have found through their N=1 something that seems to work. And also keep in mind that over time, I've seen most folks here change their approaches when biomarkers or results weren't good, or when other research appears, so I'm not sure how strongly dogmatic most are in their choices.

So, I'd guess that if someone could show proof of a specific approach, say that standing on our E4 heads in the rain once a week would prevent AD, I'd guess everyone of us here would go do it. ;)

Bottom line, let's all also remember that our choice of words on this forum can either be supportive or dismissive of members, so let's keep supportive as our goal.

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Re: RE: Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a "Large [and Unwise] Bet"

Postby Stavia » Mon May 18, 2015 8:58 am

ApropoE4 wrote:I hope you all realize what's going on:

Group: We believe in X, even though there is no evidence to support it.
.


Actually not true for all of us, I am in neither group but my current chosen diet just happens to produce low ketosis even though I'm not aiming at it specifically. I have no intention of changing my diet just to reduce my ketones.
I bet it's the same for many of us.
I bet MichaelR is in low ketosis some of the day as well due to his CR which I am sure he has meticulously designed and optimised and I bet he has no intention of changing it just to reduce ketones.
Is this unsafe? I doubt we will know for sure in our lifetime.

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Re: RE: Re: Ketogenic Diets for AD Prevention: a

Postby ApropoE4 » Mon May 18, 2015 2:08 pm

Stavia wrote:
ApropoE4 wrote:I hope you all realize what's going on:

Group: We believe in X, even though there is no evidence to support it.
.


Actually not true for all of us, I am in neither group but my current chosen diet just happens to produce low ketosis even though I'm not aiming at it specifically. I have no intention of changing my diet just to reduce my ketones.
I bet it's the same for many of us.
I bet MichaelR is in low ketosis some of the day as well due to his CR which I am sure he has meticulously designed and optimised and I bet he has no intention of changing it just to reduce ketones.
Is this unsafe? I doubt we will know for sure in our lifetime.


That condition is incredibly unlikely to be unsafe as far as cvd risk is concerned, and probably only very slightly increases the odds for bone fractures. What it does to AD risk? anyone's guess.


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