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Optimal Protein?

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
DollyWagon
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby DollyWagon » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:11 pm

GeorgeN wrote:I recall seeing a story on guys seriously into CR some years ago. The CR lowered the guy's testosterone so much he had issues holding onto muscle and sex was out of the question. I think he had low energy, too. I've not studied the CR stuff in detail, but that guy's life is not attractive to me. There is some balance in being able to live well and not just long...

A friend who is a dietician in nursing homes told me their metric is 1g/kg. Ron Rosedales is more like 0.7 g/kg. 20 g's of protein for me would be 0.25 g/kg.


.............

20g is just not realistic for an active person, Hep is talking cortisol and stress and that happens after weight training which causes muscle breakdown and recovery needs adequate protein. Have you looked at the thin weak CR people, tried that years ago as it wastes muscle but might give you some endurance but ones strength will suffer as mine did.
We need to maintain and build muscle so we can walk and get up off the chair in old age and muscle can be gained at any age and 20g is probably too low and meant for only those with serious metabolic problems and disease progression.

there is a discussion in the paper on gaining and maintaining strength which is mostly good information maybe a few things worth quibbling about but it explains the old adage that protein requirement depends on ones activity level. So near starvation and low protein is just going to make us a weakling with a walker with good medical markers.

https://www.academia.edu/9035970/30_Bod ... kly_digest
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Stavia
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby Stavia » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:20 pm

If I add the protein from my veggies n nuts, I start at 16 grams before I even touch an egg or dead fellow life form.
Just a thought.

Extra thought: we shoot for 1gm/kg in the eldery cos they don't absorb nutrients very well. And are prone to sarcopaenia cos they go catabolic very easily.
Not the same for a healthy adult.
Perhaps each of us should monitor our muscle mass with various protein amounts? Rather than surmising?

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Juliegee
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby Juliegee » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:13 pm

George & Dolly, lots of wisdom. E4s must walk a fine line. There's no doubt that we can benefit from some CR and protein restriction. BUT, when that begins to limit other proven strategies for E4s (such as exercising, following our passions, learning new skills, socializing, etc.) IMO it becomes counterproductive.

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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby DollyWagon » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:50 am

Here is a new system and book worth getting based on the principal that if we keep our muscles active we support health of the whole body and it claims it does not require strenuous exercise or a lot of cardio and only takes 30 minutes a day. I heard her on the radio talking about her book and she claimed when she taught it to a professional hockey team that they went from the most injuries in the league to the least.

http://classicalstretch.com/agingbackwards.html

one smart woman worth learning more about as this may even be better than doing yoga as I found it involved too much stretching and not enough exercise to keep me in shape and that was when I was a lot younger.

I read somewhere sometime ago that when on gets sick the body consumes the muscle and that is what happens when one dies.
look at the incredible strength and endurance of these free living people. We are a bunch of couch potatoes compared to them!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... DsOjXWF-c0
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Russ
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby Russ » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:58 am

Circular,

More in a moment, but just want to chime in re Weston Price to which I would say a) more important to read the book than join the community, and b) I expect the community is filled with many unhealthy people who are trying to get better. I agree they can be dogmatic (e.g. Sally Fallon's seemingly ill-informed rant on 'paleo' recently), but Weston Price's actual research is pretty damned convincing (although a bit unorganized and rambling for my taste). FWIW, I think the best counter-example to Gundry's claim of APOE4's as herbivores is what Julie pointed out - he came to the very clear conclusion having set off to find a healthy vegetarian culture, he found that there isn't a single example on the planet. of course that leaves plenty of room for how much animal protein and of what kind. Not sure anyone has peeled it apart this way, but I do think the WAP evidence might even lead to a preponderance of societies for whom seafood was the dominant animal protein/fat source with episodic and variable land animals (meats anyway).
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby Russ » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:17 am

So I log in this morning with protein questions on my mind per discussions with Julie and I find that she's already got a fabulous discussion on protein going. I took a lot of heat at dinner last night from my sone who is both a weight lifter and graduate in cellular and microbiology about taking protein too low while he's training me in the gym. Thanks, Julie, for reading my mind ;-)

Will read the body building link, but likely going to need help translating into a ketogenic/E4 context.

Lots of good thoughts I read, but I think the heart of the matter is this… reducing protein strengthens ketosis, but active exercise (strength and cardio) during ketogenesis is critical to avoid catabolism (ref Volek and Phinney). But (too) low protein in the presence of exercise seems likely to cause catabolism.

How do we 'square this circle'? Answer must be in situation-dependent optimum, not any extreme.
Russ
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby Russ » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:26 am

Just one more thought before I loose it… although I've given up on the 'carb night' thing for now, my gut is that there is something to cycling and variability for optimizing metabolic health - could this apply to protein, too?

If I've learned anything about nature win the last few decades it's that variable (and even sometimes extreme) stresses are crucial to system health - 'anti-fragile' in Nassim Taleb's language. Forest fires and wolves are important to Yellowstone and 'lifting heavy things' is good for me and you.

So could there be any logic for not simply thinking in terms of daily avg g/kg, but some kind of episodic variability to protein, too?
Russ
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby GeorgeN » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:43 am

Russ,

How about variable intermittent fasting for the input to the system you are talking about?

Here is what Perlmutter says about it:

In chapter 5 we explored the need to reduce caloric intake in order to increase BDNF as a means of stimulating the growth of new brain cells as well as enhancing the function of existing neurons. The idea of substantially reducing your daily calorie intake does not appeal to many people, even though it’s a powerful approach to not only brain enhancement, but also overall health. But intermittent fasting— a complete restriction of food for twenty-four to seventy-two hours at regular intervals throughout the year— is more manageable, and I recommend and outline a fasting protocol in chapter 10. Research has demonstrated that many of the same health-providing and brain-enhancing genetic pathways activated by caloric restriction are similarly engaged by fasting, even for relatively short periods of time. 3 This is counter to conventional wisdom that says fasting lowers the metabolism and forces the body to hold on to fat in a so-called starvation mode. Much to the contrary, fasting provides the body with benefits that can accelerate and enhance weight loss, not to mention boost brain health. Fasting not only turns on the genetic machinery for the production of BDNF, but also powers up the Nrf2 pathway, leading to enhanced detoxification, reduction of inflammation, and increased production of brain-protective antioxidants. Fasting causes the brain to shift away from using glucose as fuel to using ketones manufactured in the liver. When the brain is metabolizing ketones as fuel, even the process of cell suicide ( apoptosis) is reduced, while mitochondrial genes are turned on, leading to mitochondrial replication. Simply put, fasting enhances energy production and paves the way for better brain function and clarity.

Perlmutter, David (2013-09-17). Grain Brain: The Surprising Truth about Wheat, Carbs, and Sugar--Your Brain's Silent Killers (p. 184). Little, Brown and Company. Kindle Edition.
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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby Welcomeaboard » Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:58 am

A couple of things to consider.


The TV show that I mentioned about the survive the tribe as one example. The San people of Africa had not eaten meat for over a month, if that is normal for them, then there Is an example of protein cycling from ancestors that many people are descended.

Second about seafood, there was a climatic event about 75000 years ago(the date of 75000 may be off as it is from memory, I believe it was tied to the pacific super volcanoes event in Tuva). The world was reduced to a small group of people on the western coast of Africa that lived along the sea and ate seafood.

So there is ancient genetics at work that may still exist in people today. Or you may be able to find the hooey opposition party theory if it exists.

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Re: Optimal Protein?

Postby Stavia » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:26 am

Russ,, how many grams per kg protein does your son want you to have? And how much lifting are you doing? I know there is an equation to work out fuel per minute lifting to failure.


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