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Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
Tincup
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby Tincup » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:26 pm

VictorN wrote:Hi George,

Thanks for the link. So, Gundry suggests eating as much shellfish as possible but, at the same time, he warns against raising IGF-1 ("Want to minimize IGF-1 ... . Best way to do this is to minimize sugars, starches and animal protein. The issue with animal protein (including shellfish and eggs) is methionine, leucine and iso leucine", "More we stay away from animal protein and fats, the better", "Study said IGF-1 not lowered by calorie restriction but was lowered by animal protein restriction").

Isn't it a bit contradictory?


Not as much as possible - limit to 20g protein/day (4 oz serving) total for all animal source protein.
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby circular » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:26 pm

George is right. 20 mg animal protein/day is very little. Rather than being contradictory I think he's educating all sides of the issue. He's saying too much animal fat is bad, including seafood and shellfish, but he's also saying that he restores health and adverse biomarkers in his patients at the amounts and types he is allowing, and he sees some cardiovascular benefit to shellfish. Dr. Gundry's not contradictory in this case, reality is contradictory and he's at ease with that. He doesn't strike me as dogmatic about diet. He's said he's not about making people saints and that once someone's markers are in line they can see what they can get away with. While Matrix is a strict diet, he's always worked with patients' preferences. He found, for example, that vegans who were, in his view, lectin sensitive, could pressure cook their high lectin foods (e.g., grains, legumes, nightshades …) to destroy the lectins and still achieve the improved biomarkers. His favorable patient outcomes (and we probably don't hear of one's that don't work ~ I'm a work in progress) presuppose he's chosen all the right markers to track to ensure a long healthspan, such that when they coincide with subjective reports of improvements with no remaining issues that's all that's needed.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby VictorN » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:25 pm

circular wrote:He found, for example, that vegans who were, in his view, lectin sensitive, could pressure cook their high lectin foods (e.g., grains, legumes, nightshades …) to destroy the lectins and still achieve the improved biomarkers.


I'm still confused about high lectins foods. There are so many bad things said about them on this forum and on Internet, but Dr. Fuhrman never mentioned them negatively in his books (same about Dr. Neal Barnard and other guys from the same camp). How come legumes and soy are a big no-no for some researchers and perfectly fine, healthy foods for others?

I understand that for certain people, some serious and probably irreversible damage is already done and they developed lectin sensitivity. But what are percentage of such people? 20%? 50%? Are there any studies on this?

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby Stavia » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:54 pm

Victor, IMO there isn't compelling evidence either for or against lectins. Not everyone on the forum follows Gundry verbatim. I don't. No there aren't any confirmatory studies. Gundry has reported his opinion/interpretation in a poster at a conference but no researchers have done a proper single- intervention trial on lectins with significant clinical outcomes. There is no auditable data to assess. There is no trial as such that I could find. A poster at a conference is not a trial.

It's not the only divide you will find in dietary recommendations. You will also find the high-fat vs low-fat divide. You will find the animal protein vs plant protein divide. Everyone has reasons why they recommend their position. Often vehemently.
It's a minefield often, and people may get upset if their position is challenged. I guess it's like religion in a way.

But that's ok. We need to accept that there are hugely opposed points of view and not everybody will pick the same side. Perhaps everybody is right and humans can thrive with many different diets? We are omnivorous after all.

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby Tincup » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:59 pm

VictorN wrote:
circular wrote:He found, for example, that vegans who were, in his view, lectin sensitive, could pressure cook their high lectin foods (e.g., grains, legumes, nightshades …) to destroy the lectins and still achieve the improved biomarkers.


I'm still confused about high lectins foods. There are so many bad things said about them on this forum and on Internet, but Dr. Fuhrman never mentioned them negatively in his books (same about Dr. Neal Barnard and other guys from the same camp). How come legumes and soy are a big no-no for some researchers and perfectly fine, healthy foods for others?

I understand that for certain people, some serious and probably irreversible damage is already done and they developed lectin sensitivity. But what are percentage of such people? 20%? 50%? Are there any studies on this?


Victor, in this post https://www.apoe4.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2304&start=10#p26815, I posted a link to a poster Gundry presented that addresses this very little bit. As well a link to an interview with him on the topic. For us, he is all about "test and verify." As Circ mentioned above, he tells us to get our numbers in line and see what we can get away with. In my case, I had lifelong autoimmune issues that resolved on his diet. Also, when first dating my then vegan wife, I started cooking with things like coconut, almond (I have issues with both, even though allowed on his list) other flours as well as other vegan "substitutes". I started to get RA like symptoms in my hands. These also resolved. My wife had no overt autoimmune issues, however removing lectins caused metrics like TNF-alpha to reduce to within bounds. I asked if I could pressure cook black beans to ferment as black bean natto. He approved this.

His "Matrix" food list continues to evolve. What I pointed you to is a slightly older version of the latest here: https://www.apoe4.info/forums/download/file.php?id=760

He adds and takes things off depending on what he observes in patient test results. He tests things on himself and others thoroughly before putting then on his list (talking into account ApoE status). As I mentioned, I view his practice as an ongoing international study. He told us he views his patients as volunteers in a big research project.
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby Tincup » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:38 pm

{Note, I've continued to edit and add to this post, so I can keep Gundry links in one place} Attached are transcripts (and we ask many general questions during the last 20 or more minutes of each consult) of two one-hour phone consults with Dr. Gundry with my wife and me on 28 Jan 2016 and 30 Jul 2016. Thanks to my wife who did a tremendous job with these transcripts!! We did our first consult on 9 Jul 2015. It is here, with our first lab results. The format of the sessions are to go over our labs first, then we asked questions, many of which may be germane to the group. {edit} So I can point people to one place, our 4th consult (Feb 2017) is here fifth (Aug 2017) is here, sixth (Feb 2018) is here, seventh (Aug 2018) is here., eighth (Feb 2019) is here, ninth (Dec 2019) is here, tenth (May 2020) is here Most recent food lists from Plant Paradox book (published April 2017).

We are also attaching our test results for session #3 to this post - #2 are shown as "Previous" on those results (thanks again to my wife for redacting and putting in a small file size format), diet, supplements, a summary of how we think we are addressing Dr. Bredesen’s protocol ver 1.0 from his first paper, including how Gundry’ protocol is helping with this task. Likewise we are attaching Gundry’s latest “Matrix” diet list and a cross reference between Dr. Wahls’ list and Dr. Gundry’s (again my wife prepared this!). We do try to apply Dr. Wahls’ 1/3 greens, 1/3 sulfur containing veggies and 1/3 colored all the way through with at least 3 colors.
Test results supp diet transcript.zip
Matrix Wahls xref.zip
Bredesen'sregimen table simplified.pdf
(sorry about the zip files - the limit per post is 3 files, so only way to do it in one post...)

{edit Feb 2020} an annotated food list and ApoE4 summary sheet from Gundry are in this post:

We are extremely pleased with the low level of inflammation and overall good results of our tests. You may note high NMR LDL particle results, however Gundry focuses on sdLDL in mg/dL and TG/HDL and does not worry about the others.

The Gundry list is general and does not include his ApoE4 suggestions to avoid/limit animal fats but shellfish are preferred, white fish and omega 3/pastured eggs are OK. We do follow the prescription to limit all animal protein to 20g of protein/day.

Here are some background links for Bredesen and Gundry:

Bredesen STEM talk
Bredesen IHS 2016 talk
Bredesen KGNU Shelly Schlender Interview
Bredesen 36 holes in the roof

Bredesen 1st paper, includes the Ver 1.0 table
Bredesen 2nd paper

Bredsen Q&A at AHS16
Stavia's notes for Bredesen's talk at AHS16
Bredesen's book Aug 2017.
Bredesen's book Aug 2020 End of Alzheimer's Program

Gundry interviews Bredesen. In this interview, Bredesen says he is putting himself on Gundry's program.
Mercola interviews Bredesen, a fair mention of ApoE4.


Gundry interview includes some ApoE4 discussion
Transcript here or here. I found I missed many things listening that I caught reading the transcript

From the transcript:
Dr. Gundry: I do want to add a proviso that we check APOE E4 status on everybody and about 25, 30% of people carry one or both of the 4 alleles. Those people I really strongly feel that animal fats are mischief to those folks. Those folks I basically put them on a coconut fat, macadamia nut fat, olive oil fat, sesame fat and I really do limit their animal product use. With that we actually follow these small dense LDLs and we don’t quit on these folks until we get their small LDL particles down and we always do.
But this is the subset of people that I do think everyone should know their APOE status. My personal feeling is that those people, they do not do well, they should avoid animal fat product as a general rule. Can they have them? Yes, but I’d view these folks an Asian stir-fry where animal products are the garnishment to the meal is more the way these folks should eat.

Dr. Rocky: I mean I assume that fish would be relatively safer for these people.

Dr. Gundry: Believe it or not I actually use less fatty fishes. I have them get cod and mahi mahi and haddock and flounder and I stir them away from some of the fattier fishes. But I also measure omega 3 statuses 
on these guys and we actually do push up their DHAs quite a bit. But the main thing on these folks is like everybody else we’ve got to turn off all their inflammatory cytokines, because oxidized cholesterol really isn’t interested in sticking to blood vessels, getting called into action unless there is inflammation going on. Again, I view cholesterol more as an ambulance rather than an instigator.”


2018 Gundry interview on lectins.
Mercola interviews Gundry on his Plant Paradox book & lectins.
Gundry on lectins
Gundry on lectins - more.
Gundry on lectins more
Gundry on lectins more still, PDF transcript
Gundry Twelve Year Followup for Managing Coronary Artery Diease Using a Nutrigenomics Based Diet and Supplement Program With Quarterly Assessment of Biomarkers
Gundry Elevated Adiponectin And Tnf-alpha Levels Are Markers For Gluten And Lectin Sensitivity

Gundry abstract AHS16

Much controversy continues over what constitutes the ancestral diet, yet little if any attention is given to a diet that is compatible/complimentary to the true Ancestral Genome. Approximately 30% of humans carry one or both copies of the Apolipoprotein E 4 genotype (Apo E 4). The Apo E 4 genotype is common to the great apes, but only humans can and do carry Apo E 2,3, and 4 alleles. The presence of the Apo E 4 gene has been associated with increased susceptibility to accelerated atherosclerosis, decreased longevity, susceptibility to infectious diseases, and Alzheimer’s disease, by changing the way lipoproteins interact with cell surface receptors and in regulating Amyloid Beta peptides in the brain. Because of this, we have focused our attention upon keeping the small dense oxidizable particles of LDL as low as possible via a low animal fat, high soluble fiber and resistant starch diet. We have found that limiting Triglyceride production by lessening sugars, fruits, and seeded vegetables also lowers small LDL production. We further minimize the oxidization of small LDL particles using generous amounts of polyphenol rich Olive Oil as well as the polyphenols in Resveratrol, Grape Seed Extract, Turmeric, and Pomegranate Seed Oil and Extracts. Shellfish are emphasized as the animal protein of choice if desired. Unfortunately, the Paleo Diet, with its high animal fat and protein components, produces the exact opposite effect to what needs to happen in these patients. Using this protocol, we have successfully minimized the deleterious effects of this “Ancestral Gene” in thousands of patients followed for up to 15 years, many now successfully aging into their mid to late 80’s without consequence.


Gundry talk at AHS16
Gundry Q&A at AHS16
Gundry on heart scans and an alternative test
Gundry on weight loss and homocysteine
Gundry's background
Gundry Plant Paradox book 2017
Gundry on MCT's
Gundry Longevity Paradox book (2019)
Ivor Cummins interviews Steven Gundry about ApoE4 (March 2020)


Dr. Wahls TedX talk.
Wahls book.
Wahls talk at AHS16
Wahls Q&A at AHS16
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Last edited by Tincup on Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:32 pm, edited 26 times in total.
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby Nancy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:36 pm

Wow! Thank you SO MUCH.
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby circular » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:52 am

Thanks George and wife! I look forward to having time to look at all this.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby simonh01 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:58 am

Thanks for sharing George
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby apod » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:48 am

Great information George (and George's wife)... and Dr. Gundry! Thank you for sharing!

That tidbit about Gundry's LDL and oxLDL going up after consuming higher amounts of chocolate was interesting (as dark chocolate is often mentioned to reduce oxLDL). It sounds like it wasn't necessarily the sugar content, but Stearic acid. Tricky!

With a lot of your protein and calories coming from nuts (including walnuts / pecans), it seems like linoleic acid would have a tendency to run higher, yet your omega balance looks great -- n-6 isn't too high, MUFA is up at the top range, and n-3 is right where you want it. I'm thinking this is from competition via the fish oil consumed around the same time?

I'm curious, are any of your supplements consumed purposefully in the morning outside of your eating window?


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