4/4 and diabetes

[mike]

Hi, I found out a number of years ago from 23andMe that I was 4/4. Also have family history. Didn't do much with the info; didn't seem like there was much I could do. I'm 58, and have been a type 2 diabetic for about 20 years. Four years ago I had a small brainstem clot and then three years ago I had a negative reaction to a new medication that put me in the icu for 10 days. I was put on insulin, but I just gained weight. About two years ago, I quit my various meds and started a keto diet and have since lost 60 lbs and almost down to normal weight. Blood sugars are still high though. I've done a couple of water fasts about a year ago of 13 and 17 days. I'm thinking of trying one more to see if I can get rid of the fat around my liver. I also figured it was time to get some base line data on the Alzheimer's. My doc suggested I read "The end of Alzheimer's" and your forum was mentioned there. I'm going to have the lab work suggested in that book done soon. I've just started investigating this forum, but I think I'll be here often. Thanks in advance, Mike.

[NF52]

Hi, I found out a number of years ago from 23andMe that I was 4/4. Also have family history... I also figured it was time to get some base line data on the Alzheimer's. My doc suggested I read "The end of Alzheimer's" and your forum was mentioned there. I'm going to have the lab work suggested in that book done soon. I've just started investigating this forum, but I think I'll be here often. Thanks in advance, Mike.

Welcome, Mike!

Your grit and persistence in the face of years of "chronic" illness is inspiring. Whatever other genes you have, you must have some warrior perseverance genes also! I imagine your docs do a happy dance every time they see you. So thank you for finding this forum and sharing your story.

Please feel free to jump in on topics and start news ones also. I'm sure many users will wonder what kind of a keto diet you followed to lose 60 lbs.; so feel free to expand on your success if you'd like.

You may want to check out the Primer, written by Stavia, a physician/member who is also 4/4 and who has used her own considerable grit to overcome two brain injuries. She gives an overview of areas frequently asked about re ApoE 4/4, including which tests to prioritize and other lifestyle interventions.
The Wiki is a resource for in-depth information on topics, often with references to researchers or clinicians in the field.
And the wiki's How-To guide has tips on how to quote members so they see your replies to their posts, how to search for topics, subscribe to topics, find unread posts and other handy navigation tools.

And as a 66 year old 4/4, whose father (and his doctors) didn't understand the risks of diabetes until it was too late, a hug from a genetic "cousin".

[JML]

Hi Mike,

Welcome to the community! I'm glad your doctor recommended the book to you and you found our site. You have made some amazing changes in your life already--that's not easy to do! As NF52 mentioned, the Primer is a great place to learn about other lifestyle changes that can be made to improve your health--check it out to see if working on other areas like exercise or sleep might help you.

We look forward hearing about your progress if you wish to share. And be sure to ask questions along the way!

[Tincup]

... I was put on insulin, but I just gained weight. About two years ago, I quit my various meds and started a keto diet and have since lost 60 lbs and almost down to normal weight. Blood sugars are still high though. I've done a couple of water fasts about a year ago of 13 and 17 days. I'm thinking of trying one more to see if I can get rid of the fat around my liver.

Hi Mike, I think you are on the right track. Prof Roy Taylor at the Newcastle MRI Centre in the UK has shown remission of T2 using a 600- 800? (I didn't recheck the specifics, but a search is linked to his name) calorie/day diet for 8 weeks. The remission appears to be from reduction in liver and pancreatic fat. The negative is that this worked well for those diagnosed for 4 years or less. Whether it would just take longer in someone with a longer diagnosis time is unknown as I recall that those with a longer diagnosis did show benefit. Also, Taylor's results were widely reported in the UK press. Hence many people just took the low calorie concept and applied it with their own set of foods. They reported positive results to Taylor.

As you may be aware, Jason Fung has used fasting to create diabetes remission. He has blogged about it extensively. What I'm unaware of it whether longer fasts, as you have done are more effective than regular, shorter fasts. For example three 36 or 42 hour fasts/week, or maybe 5 days every other week.

Congratulations on what you've accomplished so far!!

[mike]

Tincup, I did a liquid protein diet and also lost a bunch of weight earlier on, but did not help my sugar numbers... I was not aware of Jason Fung, and I will certainly check that out! There is some evidence that long term fasting activates stem cells. After fast, you put back on about half the weight, and the hope is that it comes from stem cell rather than normal cell division. Not at all clear how it would get directed... But would love to get new beta cells. Failing that, just losing the last of the fat has to help.

[mike]

NF52 and JMLCB thanks for the welcome. I don't know how good I've been those last 20 years - it has been mostly the last few years that I've gotten serious. You asked about diet. I've been following the "Optimal Ketogenic Living" (OKL on Facebook) way of eating. It is different then the keto diet mentioned in the book. It calls for a large amount of protein, with meat being okay if it is properly raised. Carbs are kept VERY low, and fat is a range depending on goal. These macros are roughly based on height and sex. I'm 6'3" and I need at least 160 grams protein and no more than 40 grams carbs. If you get hungry, you can exceed protein by as much as 50%. Fat is between about 120 and 275 grams, but they normally suggest you start at 10 below protein, or 150 grams for me. As you become keto adapted, if you want to lose more weight, you can adjust that down. Fasting is somewhat of an add-on. Different fasts are suggested based on condition. Everyone is encouraged to restrict eating to as small a time window each day as possible. However, breakfast is NOT to be missed. Stopping eating as early as you can before bed. Some folks have all their food at one sitting. Longer fasts of multiple days is encouraged periodically, but not required. If you are chronically I'll, then longer fasts are sometimes recommended. The body decides what it wants to cannibalize during fasting based on what is less needed. Cancer is good at hiding from the immune system, but might get destroyed during fasting... I lost my first 10 pounds just by stopping insulin. I then lost 50 more pounds on OKL in my first year. This last year after the fires had been rough. I quit exercising as much for awhile, and that has been bad for the sugars, but I've been getting better the last few months. I'm thinking about doing another fast to shake things up, or maybe just time to cut out more fat.

[NF52]

Thanks for the details, Mike. This sounds like the way my husband, who is 6’1”, eats when he wants to lose weight. Guys and meat seem to have an affinity!

[Tincup]

I've been following the "Optimal Ketogenic Living" (OKL on Facebook) way of eating. .

Raymund Edwards is a smart guy. His approach is good. I know some OKL people post their numbers and have him guide them. Have you done this? If so, what has he suggested?

[mike]

Tincup,

Yes, my wife posted my labs back a bit after I started OKL. For me, he recommended the multi-day water fasting. They also have a list a recommended supplements with quite a bit of overlap with this forum. Someone recently shared their story where they were working with Raymund and did a 108 day fast...Youch! They apparently were able to get rid uterine cancer.

Something that is a bit different between the two is WHEN to exercise. The amount and type is similar, but with OKL, they say that it is not good to do strenuous exercise in the morning, but rather better in the afternoon. Based on circadian rhythm and the fact that the body is expending a lot getting the systems up in the morning, and you are more likely to have a cardiovascular event. Apparently a high percentage of heart attacks happen in early hours. I myself try to walk the dogs in the morning - up and down hills and getting heart rate up, but not pushing it. I try to play volleyball a couple of times a week, and I go to Physical Therapy once a week in the afternoon, where I'm using resistance and weights, trying to build back muscle, and here I'm really pushing it.

[mike]

Thought I would give an update. After my last post here, I did another water fast in 10/18 for 19 days. Unlike the first two, I was not putting on weight after, so I added Macadamia nuts and more cream in my coffee. Quickly gained back what I wanted, plus more. 2019 was not a great year for me, and did not get a chance to do another fast. I started my last fast at 209 lbs and lost 20 to get to 189. Went up to 225 (more muscle, not all fat!), but worked it down to 218, and now I'm doing another fast. This time it is not a true fast, since I'm continuing to have heavy cream in my coffee, and getting about 250-300 calories of mostly fat during the day. Today is day 15, and I'm down to 203 lbs, or about 1 lb / day. This fast seems easier than the last, but all have seemed easy - probably my double E4. I'm continuing to exercise, though not as much. I was able to play volleyball league last Saturday, and went to weight training Thursday with my PT. Also walking a couple miles most mornings walking the dogs. Interesting thing - my blood sugars have bottom out at 120. In my last fast I bottomed at 90. My first fast, I went lower, but then it went up and stabilized at 90. I'm starting this fast at a higher base blood sugar than before, but not by 30 points...