PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

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circular
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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby circular » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:16 pm

Rainbow wrote:For the record, I have exactly the same SNPs:

PEMT rs7946(T;T)
FADS1 rs174548(G;G)
MTRR rs1801394(G;G)

Pass the liver!

Wow, I wonder how often that happens. Maybe it's quite common. Liver is the one food I most hate that I most wish I could even like, much less love.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby SusanJ » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:58 pm

Interesting reference. It matches up, mostly with https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Choli ... fessional/.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby circular » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:02 pm

SusanJ wrote:Interesting reference. It matches up, mostly with https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Choli ... fessional/.

Thanks Susan. I found that interesting too.

It would appear difficult to get 1000 mg of choline a day through diet if one has, shall we say, subclinical choline deficiency. One serving each of all the items in the food chart yields only just over 1500 mg of choline a day. The upper limit for adults is 3500, so it seems the risk of getting too much would only be high if loads of the top four sources were eaten. When I guage my dietary choline inputs, with my genetics I'm only more encouraged to supplement, but I wonder if the TMG issue is still a problem is one starts with a deficiency. Will have to look into that. Don't know much about it.

WebMD says:
An average diet supplies 200-600 mg of choline daily. Adequate Intake (AI), as established by the Food and Nutrition Board of the National Institute of Medicine, for adults is 550 mg per day for men and breast feeding women; women, 425 mg per day; pregnant women, 450 mg per day. For children 1-3 years the AI is 200 mg per day; 4-8 years, 250 mg per day; 9-13 years, 375 mg per day; for infants less than 6 months, 125 mg per day; infants 7-12 months, 150 mg per day. [Emphasis added]

When setting these AI levels, they appear to have completely overlooked the risk to post-menopausal women -- especially maybe those not on HRT along with those having mutations on the choline SNPs, and holy smokes if you're both. Does this oversight in dietary practice not look like it could be a contributor to the higher incidence of AD in women?

This is also interesting from waaaaaay back in 2006:

Choline deficiency increases lymphocyte apoptosis and DNA damage in humans
Abstract
Background:

Whereas deficiency of the essential nutrient choline is associated with DNA damage and apoptosis in cell and rodent models, it has not been shown in humans.
Objective:

The objective was to ascertain whether lymphocytes from choline-deficient humans had greater DNA damage and apoptosis than did those from choline-sufficient humans.
Design:

Fifty-one men and women aged 18–70 y were fed a diet containing the recommended adequate intake of choline (control) for 10 d. They then were fed a choline-deficient diet for up to 42 d before repletion with 138–550 mg choline/d. Blood was collected at the end of each phase, and peripheral lymphocytes were isolated. DNA damage and apoptosis were then assessed by activation of caspase-3, terminal deoxynucleotide transferase–mediated dUTP nick end-labeling, and single-cell gel electrophoresis (COMET) assays.
Results:

All subjects fed the choline-deficient diet had lymphocyte DNA damage, as assessed by COMET assay, twice that found when they were fed the control diet. The subjects who developed organ dysfunction (liver or muscle) when fed the choline-deficient diet had significantly more apoptotic lymphocytes, as assessed by the activated caspase-3 assay, than when fed the control diet.
Conclusions:

A choline-deficient diet increased DNA damage in humans. Subjects in whom these diets induced liver or muscle dys-function also had higher rates of apoptosis in their peripheral lymphocytes than did subjects who did not develop organ dysfunction. Assessment of DNA damage and apoptosis in lymphocytes appears to be a clinically useful measure in humans (such as those receiving parenteral nutrition) in whom choline deficiency is suspected. [Emphasis added]

This makes me wonder if in any way lymphocyte telomere testing such as that offered through TeloYears could reflect choline status. I'm guessing it probably can't be that easy, since there must be many things that can lead to telomere shortening.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby SusanJ » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:20 pm

circular wrote:When setting these AI levels, they appear to have completely overlooked the risk to post-menopausal women -- especially maybe those not on HRT along with those having mutations on the choline SNPs, and holy smokes if you're both. Does this oversight in dietary practice not look like it could be a contributor to the higher incidence of AD in women?


Good point. Might well be a strong contributing factor.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby circular » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:18 pm

I had a followup consult with Dr. Ackerley yesterday. We went over my supplements. Instead of Alpha GPC and Citicholine, she recommended BodyBio PC. Two softgels have 1300 mg of 'phospholipid complex' made up of phosphatidyl-choline, phosphatidyl-ethanolamine and phosphatidyl-inositol using an omega 6:3 ratio of 4:1. They cite the WHO as having endorsed this ratio. It's a little different from what Dr. Bredesen offers as a target (I believe, without checking, 1:1), but if diet is high in omega 3 and low in omega 6, the overall ratio can be manipulated.

The website says it's derived from lineoleic and alphalinolenic fatty acids. I'm homozygous on FADS2 rs1535 which the FoundMyFitness genetic report says confers '~58.2% poorer conversion of ala into omega-3 epa'. I wonder if that would affect how well my body could use this particular phospholipid supplement in the context of choline functions, or would the choline boost be independent of poor conversion to omega-3 epa? Regardless I plan to keep taking the 'Nordic Naturals Omega-3 Phospholipids' from fish and eating high omega 3 fish.

Dr. Ackerley has some patients using this who report feeling sharper and quicker.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby cdamaden » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:10 pm

Hi Circular, I have been taking BodyBio PC ( 2 softgells in the morning before eating). I am A/G on rs1535, which gives me about 27% poorer conversion. I also have FADS1, rs174548 (C;G), which gives me intermediate phosphatidylcholine levels, and MTHFR with rs1801131 (C;C) and rs1801133 (C;C), which means that I need more choline to help with elevated homocysteine. I have trouble with egg whites which makes it mildly harder to eat 4 egg yolks a day as suggested by Chris Masterjohn. I can't say for sure what all the elements were that reduced my brain fog but this could be one of them (most significant factors were eliminating peppers from my diet and increasing sleep). According to my last THD test, my omega 3s were at 12.9% (near the top of the range) and omega 6s were at 28.1% (below range). Those aren't one to one, so not sure how much the BodyBio affected those numbers.
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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby circular » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:33 am

cdamaden wrote:Hi Circular, I have been taking Bodybio PC ( 2 softgells in the morning before eating). I am A/G on rs1535, which gives me about 27% poorer conversion. I also have FADS1, rs174548 (C;G), which gives me intermediate phosphatidylcholine levels, and MTHFR with rs1801131 (C;C) and rs1801133 (C;C), which means that I need more choline to help with elevated homocysteine. I have trouble with egg whites which makes it mildly harder to eat 4 egg yolks a day as suggested by Chris Masterjohn. I can't say for sure what all the elements were that reduced my brain fog but this could be one of them (most significant factors were eliminating peppers from my diet and increasing sleep). According to my last THD test, my omega 3s were at 12.9% (near the top of the range) and omega 6s were at 28.1% (below range). Those aren't one to one, so not sure how much the BodyBio affected those numbers.
Chris

Hi Chris, Dr. Ackerley said that she hears from patients that Bodybio PC helps their minds feel sharper and clearer. Now that I've been taking it for a bit, two a day, I feel that way too. Since I never felt any different taking Alpha-GPC and Citicholine, (both of which are recommended for those who need choline support in Dr. Bredesen's protocol), I'm going to stop those for now and stick with the Bodybio. As usual I can think of other things that may be helping. I've been taking a new circadian rhythm supplement and skullcap for sleep, both started around the same time. I'm sleeping good, while I've gone from 8 hours to about 7, with less daytime fatigue. Down the line I can remove Bodybio and see what happens.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby cdamaden » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:33 pm

circular wrote:I'm going to stop those for now and stick with the Bodybio. As usual I can think of other things that may be helping. I've been taking a new circadian rhythm supplement and skullcap for sleep, both started around the same time. I'm sleeping good, while I've gone from 8 hours to about 7, with less daytime fatigue. Down the line I can remove Bodybio and see what happens.

Great idea. It is very difficult to keep everything constant and change only one factor. It sounds like you have a positive trend and it's worth riding out then taking away what you think is the likeliest change that induced the positive outcome.
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