animal protein

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animal protein

Postby johnseed » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:48 pm

what is the maximum amount of animal protein should one eat daily ? Is it a certain weight of meat or fish per kg of bodyweight?

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Re: animal protein

Postby BrianR » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:19 am

You know there is no generally accepted correct answer for this question, right?

IMO, the "common wisdom" seems to center around no more than 3 oz (~85g) total weight for animal flesh. Some may or may not include eggs or milk products in that total. Of course, there are many on this forum who feel they do better on considerably more than that amount.

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Re: RE: animal protein

Postby DaleBru » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:31 am

johnseed wrote:what is the maximum amount of animal protein should one eat daily ? Is it a certain weight of meat or fish per kg of bodyweight?
Eat as much as you can. Go by the science, not the prevailing nutritional political view established by George McGovern et al.
This is a good summary published in the BMJ last week.

https://www.bmj.com/content/366/bmj.l4137#aff-10



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Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:55 am

I would definitely err on the side of caution with meat. There are too many studies showing its deleterious effects on AD. Here's just one multicountry review study from 2016:
Dietary supply of meat or animal products less milk 5 years before AD prevalence had the highest correlations with AD prevalence in this study. Thus, reducing meat consumption could significantly reduce the risk of AD

The most important dietary link to AD appears to be meat consumption, with eggs and high-fat dairy also contributing.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 16.1161566
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Re: animal protein

Postby cdamaden » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:55 am

Plumster wrote:I would definitely err on the side of caution with meat. There are too many studies showing its deleterious effects on AD.

Hi Plumster, thanks for that link. Here's one quote of interest: "Foods protective against AD include fruits, vegetables, grains, low-fat dairy products, legumes, and fish, whereas risk factors include meat, sweets, and high-fat dairy products. " I believe the point of debate is whether the risk factors listed were identified independently or collectively. The counterpoint people raise is that meat consumption with greens and other vegetables is safe, but when you remove the greens and vegetables and add in sweets then you remove the protective and add in the deleterious. Here's an interesting analysis by Dr. Sarah Balantyne:
https://www.thepaleomom.com/the-link-be ... nd-cancer/ , that addresses cancer and meat.

I don't know the answer myself but have settled on the idea that our ancestors would eat meat and fish given the opportunity while maintaining a solid foundation of vegetables and fruit when available.
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Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:08 am

Hi cdamaden,

There's obviously no one right answer here, as you know, but I just want to point out this conclusion from the study I listed above:

Diets high in grains, fruits, vegetables, and fish are associated with reduced risk of AD, but these factors cannot counter the effects of meat, eggs, and high-fat dairy.


I am whole foods plant based (no gluten, low sugar, low fat) but recognize the benefits of fish and will eat SMASH on occasion.
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Re: animal protein

Postby circular » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:53 am

Yesterday Dr. Gundry interviewed Dr. Paul Saladino on his podcast, and it sounds like phase two of the discussion will be Paul Saladino interviewing Dr. Gundry. Dr. Gundry is a low animal protein proponent, while Dr. Saladino is a carnivore.

Dr. Saladino points to the limitations of the epidemiological studies that people rely on to promote limited meat consumption as not being empirical epidemiological studies. He suggests that participants who were eating high meat may also have had many other bad habits, and that the rest of the dietary and lifestyle inputs make the difference.

Is exercise factored into these epidemiological analyses? My 'takeaway' from Dr. Rhonda Patrick and Dr. Gabriel Lyon is that with adequate muscle building/maintaining exercise and plus intermittent fasting the mTOR is essential to begin muscle protein synthesis, but without adequate exercise and intermittent fasting (to reset mTOR) it can lead to problems.

I'm still finding it hard to reconcile what I'm learning from the head-to-tail animal proponents with findings of the MIND, FINGER and PREDIMED (the latter focused on cardiovascular health but with implications for AD). I just 'looked at' PREDIMED (searched for 'meat') and it mentions 'red meat', but perhaps significantly not nose-to-tail animal protein intake. I'm guessing that's the same with MIND and FINGER?

The animal protein proponents I'm beginning to listen to more are advocating nose-to-tail in part because that's the way to get a proper balance of amino acids, the example being too much muscle methionine is only detrimental without enough glycine from collagen.

I recently started taking Ancestral Supplements beef organs and bone marrow capsules because I don't like eating organs and the like. N=1: I'm noticing a difference in my energy and stamina while exercising (generally feel more robust), and I have less hair coming out in the shower.
Last edited by circular on Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: animal protein

Postby johnseed » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:26 pm

BrianR wrote:You know there is no generally accepted correct answer for this question, right?

IMO, the "common wisdom" seems to center around no more than 3 oz (~85g) total weight for animal flesh. .


I know that there is no consensus on this question. I guess I was wondering what Dale Bredesen's flexitarian diet recommends? Is 3oz of animal protein the same as 3 oz of animal flesh? ie does 3 oz of flesh contain 3 oz of protein? Is all animal flesh, red meat, white meat, fish, shellfish etc the same from this perspective?

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Re: animal protein

Postby jgilberAZ » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:08 pm

Plumster wrote:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07315724.2016.1161566


Observational studies are not useful for anything more than determining a hypotheses.

And, that hypotheses is not useful for much of anything unless it is tested in a rigorous, controlled fashion.


Alzheimer's disease is primarily caused by Hyperinsulinemia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBMOZfGY6uc


Meat does not cause Hyperinsulinemia.

What does?

Diets high in grains, fruits ...
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Re: animal protein

Postby Julie G » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:25 pm

I know that there is no consensus on this question. I guess I was wondering what Dale Bredesen's flexitarian diet recommends? Is 3oz of animal protein the same as 3 oz of animal flesh? ie does 3 oz of flesh contain 3 oz of protein? Is all animal flesh, red meat, white meat, fish, shellfish etc the same from this perspective?

Dr. Bredesen is on the lower side with his recommendations, 0.8 to 1.0g/per kg LBM per day. That limitation only applies to animal protein. All plants have some protein and this imitation doesn't apply to unprocessed plant protein. He recognizes that many people have higher protein needs including those with GI issues (SIBO, GERD, IBS, etc), sub-type 3 (Toxic) AD, those over age 65, and those with physically demanding jobs or athletes. He acknowledges walking a balancing act between supporting growth processes and longevity pathways. His goal is to focus on healing underlying root causes to bring folks to a place where they can benefit from this lower recommendation.

His top picks are low mercury wild caught seafood and pastured eggs to provide the raw material for synaptic support. He's fine with less frequent pastured beef, lamb, and bison. He strongly encourages the use of pastured organ meats and bone broth (several times a week) to promote nose-to-tail eating and prevent methionine excess.

You can use a lean body mass calculator to determine your starting place. Cronometer is a great free online resources to help you figure out the amount of protein in various foods. Using the formula above, an omnivorous, active, 130 lbs. woman could eat two pastured eggs and 5 oz. of wild-caught salmon in a day.


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