I need help with selenium toxicity !!

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Ssa
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I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby Ssa » Sat Feb 15, 2020 5:55 am

This may seem far fetched and you’ll have to bear with me. First my symptoms started a month or two ago which was first I noticed vertical ridges on finger and toe nails. Then my hair started getting thinner. I used to have really thick hair but now it is half gone. I had fatigue to the point that I don’t go on my long power walks in morning. I had a weird rash on my ankles that has gotten better. And after reading on selenium overdose I have noticed that yes I do have a metallic taste in my mouth.

About 6 months ago I started a new routine on my supplemts. I had taken a multi vitamin for years by md essentials 5 in 1. It recommended 4 a day. It had 400mcg of selenium, high dose of methy b 12 and 400 mcg methylfolate. These are maybe just the key players. I took my Multi with other supplements after lunch with other supplements. At night I took a sporadic phosphatidylcholine. Another key player in my current theory.

I had upped my phosphatidylcholine about a year half ago because my homocysteine had gone up on my bloodwork and cholesterol were up. My homocysteine has never been high in past 20 years before. My cholesterol has always been high but never homocysteine before. I’m thinking phosphatidycholine brought it down. I had also started only taking two of multis and added extra 400mcg methylfolate which gave me 200mcg selenium and 600mcg methylfolate
At this point all was good homocysteine came down to 8 and cholesterol profile had never been this good.

Now the overdose of Selenium ..
I switched because in my research and trying to lower homocysteine even more. I read that multi vitamins were not that good and wanted to switch to b right by Jarrow and to make my own multi vitamin. I also started taking pic mins by Thorne. At first I only took one pic min and then couple months ago I started taking two. This gave me 200mcg selenium. I also changed timing of supplements to b right (2) and phosphatidyle choline In morning on empty stomach and pic mins (2) after lunch

I also started snacking on a new mixed nut bag for several months. Usually mixed nuts only have one Brazil nut. This large bag has many. Every time I saw one I would “stupidly” think “oh those are good for my thyroid” and would eat them. I can’t say for sure how many I would eat along with my dark chocolate almonds. I also was trying to get more choline and eating more eggs. More choline and selenium. I also eat pretty good. Now I know I don’t need to supplement fat solubles or minerals ever. I’m sure I get plenty of selenium in my diet.

Now my theory. When I switched my supplements. First I think these are better b’s and phosphatidylcholine and taking in morning better absorption. Better mineral supplement and not a multi so better absorption. Upped my Selenium in diet considerably with Brazil nuts and eggs.

My hair is considerably thinner that’s it’s very worrisome.

At first I thought it was vitamin A because of my rash on ankles and other weird skin problems. So stopped that and it got better but hair kept thinning.

I was not having any luck on research with how to get selenium out of my system and was really quite scary to read on. There was no solution other than stop the source of selenium and wait. I never knew you should never take more than 400mcg from diet and supplements. I got 400 in my multi for years plus my diet.

I finally found some answers on a veterinary site for horses. When horses get too much Selenium from pasture or hay they lose there mane and hoofs crack.
Their remedy was to stop the selenium source and up protein https://wagwalking.com/horse/condition/ ... -toxicosis Your veterinarian may suggest a diet that will counteract the effects of the selenium toxicity within your horse. This diet should include high protein, linseed oil meal, silver, arsenic, sulfur, copper, cadmium and mercury. All of these have been proven to reduce selenium toxicity in horses.

Read more at: https://wagwalking.com/horse/condition/ ... -toxicosis

Another https://thehorse.com/129317/selenium-a- ... ng-act/ppm)
should not be fed to horses. Supplementing with feeds grown on non-seleniferous soils might be necessary to dilute the total dietary intake of selenium. Feeding hay with sulfur amino acids such as cysteine or methionine might reduce the effects of a high-selenium diet. Selenium replaces amino acids, such as sulfur. By increasing your horse’s amino acid intake, you can dilute the selenium levels.

I’m thinking that I need to stop the phosphatidylcholine and b right and all the antioxidants that I take. Pycnogenol bioflavonoids and maybe c etc Of corse no extra selenium and reduce it in diet.

My question is could the b right and choline be using up all my methyl pathways and Selenium doesn’t have anything to do. That I increase toxins and reduce my antioxidants so the selenium can get used up.

I’m smart enough to get myself into this mess but also very stupid. And not smart enough to get myself out

I will never supplement fat soluble A or E again or minerals. I eat good sometimes too good and I don’t need supplements. I do have two mthfr snips one on 677 and one on 1298. I am apoe2/4 so if I can get rid of this selenium I will only do the b’s and choline along with my potassium and not over do anti oxidants.

I’m so sorry this is so long but I don’t have anyone else that would understand or know what to do.
Last edited by Ssa on Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:58 am, edited 4 times in total.

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SusanJ
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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby SusanJ » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:19 am

Ssa wrote:I was not having any luck on research with how to get selenium out of my system


Always frustrating when vitamins cause more trouble than they correct.

No direct experience here, but Chris Masterjohn has a lot of good research on vitamins. Here's one on high selenium.

He has other posts about selenium that you could also read.

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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby Ssa » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:35 am

Thank you I will see if I can find anything else he has on this.
This was one short answer that says to get more methylation to rid the selenium. This goes along with my theory that I need to let the selenium do the methylation instead of methylfolate and phosphatidylcholine. My homocysteine might go back up temporally until I can get rid of it.

I just don’t know if the 400mcg I took for 3 or more years in my multi plus normal diet was stored or was used up before I started taking choline.

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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby Ssa » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:50 am

I get so confused.
Masterjohn says
you have low methylation because methylation is needed to get rid of excess selenium.

What does this mean “ low methylation “ ?

Anybody?

Does this mean I should stop my methylated b complex and sunflower lecithin ? to open up pathways or
Continue

Also the links I cited stated to up protein intake but all sulphur amino acids protein have selenium. Should I just take some supplemental amino acids?

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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby SusanJ » Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:32 pm

Low methylation means that your body is not creating enough SAMe from methionine (part of the methylation cycle) to provide methyl groups for biological processes. The problems could come from a number of factors related to the methylation cycle.

For example, you could be taking methylfolate, but if your choline pathway is compromised, more of the methyl groups originating from the methylfolate (via SAMe) may used by PEMT to create phosphatidylcholine, an important component of cell membranes, than used by other methyltransferases (of which there are over 200 enzymes needing methyl groups).

Try Masterjohn's post for more information on methylation. He goes over what labs you need to watch and how to treat. There is also more detailed information on our methylation wiki.

Methylation is a complicated subject and more than just what gene variants you have or taking B vitamins.

If you feel you're doing all the things that Masterjohn suggests, I'd suggest you look at Ben Lynch's "Dirty Genes" book. He looks at 8 genes (MTHFR, COMT, DAO, MAOA, GST, GPX, NOS3, PEMT) that are implicated in many diseases, and also the factors that influence those genes (you may have the normal variants but still get a badly performing gene). Interestingly, he says that MTHFR is the last one to treat of the 8. For you, I'd suggest you read the whole book, but look carefully at the GST and GPX genes because they are critical in detoxing.

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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby floramaria » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:09 pm

Ssa wrote:That I increase toxins and reduce my antioxidants so the selenium can get used up.

So sorry to hear of your perplexing situation in regards to selenium, Ssa.
Hopefully, the Chris Masterjohn link SusanJ provided will provide some answers for you.
So disappointing to be creating new problems as you are resolving existing ones, as seems to be the case with your lowering your homocysteine.
Even though the articles on horses suggest lowering their selenium by introducing more toxins, this seems like a desperate measure. I dont think that you could assume that if you introduced mercury or cadmium, for example, to up your toxicity the selenium in your body would be mobilized and used up.

More likely you would be compounding problems by adding in some serious toxins.
Best wishes that you find a more gentle path to eliminating the selenium.
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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby Ssa » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:23 pm

Than you Floramaria
I feel you understand my predicament. Unfortunately Chris Masterjohn doesn’t really outline any solutions to get rid of excess selenium. He talks about deficiency of selenium a lot and not in any understandable way at that. He does say there needs to be more research on getting rid of excess.

I fear as usual I am on my own to figure it out.

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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby floramaria » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:43 pm

Ssa wrote:Than you Floramaria
Unfortunately Chris Masterjohn doesn’t really outline any solutions to get rid of excess selenium. He talks about deficiency of selenium a lot and not in any understandable way at that. He does say there needs to be more research on getting rid of excess.
I fear as usual I am on my own to figure it out.

Darn! His saying there needs to be more research on getting rid of excess is not much help at all. (Maybe he is stuck with only that because the information available is like what you found on horses.) Please post anything that you find as you try to resolve this. If I come across anything, I’ll post it here too.
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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby slacker » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:44 pm

Ssa wrote:Unfortunately Chris Masterjohn doesn’t really outline any solutions to get rid of excess selenium. He talks about deficiency of selenium a lot and not in any understandable way at that. He does say there needs to be more research on getting rid of excess.
Is this from Masterjohn's 2/2017 podcast or his more recent Vitamins and Minerals 101? He does have a Facebook page where questions about Vitamins and Minerals are welcome. It might be worth a post there (if you haven't done so already).
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Re: I need help with selenium toxicity !!

Postby Ssa » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:58 pm

Thanks everybody
I don’t think I can really do anything but wait it out. I tried the last two days of cutting out my methylated b’sand bioflavonoids. I almost couldn’t function. I felt very drained and like I was coming down with something. The metal garlic taste became more pronounced. My nails are getting worse or maybe I just know now.

But I can’t do the no antioxidant thing. Maybe I’ll cycle it. Somehow I feel it purges it. I’ve read the garlicky breath is the selenium leaving the body. But I feel more damaged. So antioxidants tomorrow I’ll drink tons of water. Thinking about distilled water maybe.


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