Fish Oil

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
Ski
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Fish Oil

Postby Ski » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:29 pm

Im curious as to what brands and how much fish oil, folks take?

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Re: Fish Oil

Postby SpunkyPup » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:08 pm

should be molecularly distilled and sample tests published on the web meeting the highest standards. this was mentioned in B Sears Toxic Fat book but I do not have the site handy.
Consumerlab does check on brands so if they are approved then it should be ok. guidelines are 2:1 EPA/DHA
LifeExtension brand passes but does not meet 2:1 but contains an active ingredient which is uniquely beneficial not found in others.

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Re: Fish Oil

Postby TCat » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:26 pm

I just finished a bottle of Ascenta’s NutraSea HP: http://www.ascentahealth.com/products/h ... trasea-hp/

It was bought when my focus was to keep inflammation low in order to prevent CVD and other unpleasant stuff running in my family (AD was not on the horizon at the time).

My focus shifted now and I am at the loss of what fish oil to get, if any. Information out there is very confusing. Some sources say DHA seems to be brain protective but not necessarily for E4s. Other sources say that E4s need even larger DHA doses, but there is an issue with oxidation.

I am considering Neuromega by Alterra: http://herbasante.ca/2012/en/products/b ... =neuromega

This product has 2750mg of DHA per tsp so I am thinking of taking just 1/2 tsp together with antioxidants like curcumin, astaxanthin and/or vitamins A & E. May be I’ll take it with Phosphatidylserine to help DHA to cross BBB.

Any opinions and suggestions?

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Gilgamesh
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Re: Fish Oil

Postby Gilgamesh » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:30 am

Hi TCat!

If your only concern is dementia risk and you're an ε4-carrier, I'm not sure taking any kind of fish oil is a good idea. Eating a small serving of safe fish (Pacific salmon, sardines) a couple times a week would probably be a good bet though (we still don't know whether it's the omega-3 in the fish or something else -- astaxanthin, for ex. -- that helps).

I have, though, lots of other health concerns that compelled me to decide to take fish oil (gut health and mental health, to name two). My criteria for a good fish oil supp.? Low vitamin E (companies often put in tons as a preservative; shouldn't be needed in a well-constructed capsule), really high EPA:DHA ratio, and as clean (empty of toxins -- as verified by ConsumerLab or Consumer Reports or such) as possible.

I finally came up with:

http://www.iherb.com/Renew-Life-Norwegi ... Gels/15196

Here's what I believe is safe salmon, by the way:

http://www.iherb.com/Wild-Planet-Wild-A ... 70-g/34649

Safe sardines:

http://www.iherb.com/Wild-Planet-Wild-S ... 25-g/34646

Wild Planet's cans are as BPA-free as one can get, but Wild Planet is too honest to put "BPA-free" on their cans (as of last year, I think). They explain the details on their website.

Oh, by the way, you can save money at iHerb my using my discount code:

GUD195

(And I save a tiny bit of money.)

But there are lots of places to get the above. If someone finds something better than iHerb, let me know.

I also take a tiny amount of astaxanthin.

If my only concern were dementia, I'd aim for a very small amount of oily fish each week (total of 100-120 grams of fish or so per week), and not take any fish oil supps., and I'd eat a lot of plant-based omega-3s. Only a tiny fraction of the shorter, plant-based omega-3s gets converted to the longer forms we need, but based on the evidence I've so far seen, it's only that tiny fraction that's (normally) needed.

GB

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Re: Fish Oil

Postby TCat » Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:23 pm

Hi Gilgamesh,

Prior to finding out my E4 status (still having hard time putting 'me' and 'E4' in one sentence) my primary concern was CVD and cancer prevention. With 40% risk of AD (by comparison heart attack no longer sounds so bad ;-) ) my primary concern now is try to prevent/postpone it. Among other things, I am trying to adjust supplements that I've been taking 'before AD'.

As per Dr. Barry Sears (Zone diet) and Dr. Stephen Sinatra (Metabolic Cardiology) I've been taking fish oil for a while.
http://www.healthquestpodcast.com/wp-co ... ols-v2.pdf


So no fish oil now at all? I have to think about it. I do eat fish few times a week, mostly baked wild salmon. I am not on any particular diet, just trying to eat right - no processed food, lots of fruits and vegetables, very little meat, etc.

As for Astaxanthin, I take one of these most days: http://ca.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Astaxanth ... gels/30086

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Re: Fish Oil

Postby Julie G » Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:02 pm

Hey TCat,

I feel you. Prior to learning my APOE status- 4/4, I had never even heard of it before. Alzheimer's wasn't even on my radar. It most definitely turned my life upside down. I’m sure you feel the same way.

I just wanted to throw out the idea that fish oil, like many possible ϵ4 interventions, is controversial. I've been all over the place with whether or not to supplement. I did. Then, I stopped. Now, I am again :roll: I eat a healthy diet (like you) that is low in carbs-only veggies & fruit with Omega-3 rich proteins- and subsequently low in inflammation/oxidation. The concern is that fish oil/PUFAs are prone to oxidizing and our genotype makes that even more likely especially in the context of a typical Western diet.

Research to date has been mostly negative, showing ϵ4s do not get the same benefit as other genotypes.
Some newer research shows that ϵ4 mice can derive the same benefit with higher doses and additional antioxidants and nutrients. There are currently several studies underway testing the same concept on humans.

The isoform-specific pathological effects of apoE4 in vivo are prevented by a fish oil (DHA) diet and are modified by cholesterol

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22057027

"These findings suggest that a fish oil (DHA) diet could be used to attenuate the effects of apoE4 in AD."
__________________________

Effects of Specific Multi-Nutrient Enriched Diets on Cerebral Metabolism, Cognition and Neuropathology in AβPPswe-PS1dE9 Mice

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0075393

"The FC diet additionally restored neurogenesis in AβPP-PS1 mice, decreased hippocampal levels of unbound choline-containing compounds in wild-type and AβPP-PS1 animals, suggesting diminished membrane turnover, and decreased anxiety-related behavior in the open field behavior. In conclusion, the current data indicate that specific multi-nutrient diets can influence AD-related etiopathogenic processes. Intervention with the FC diet might be of interest for several other neurodegenerative and neurological disorders."

Some further digging revealed that the “FC” diet was a mouse version of Souvenaid- a patented mixture of nutrients that includes choline, uridine, monophosphate, high levels of omega-3 fatty acids, and various antioxidants and B vitamins.

In the meantime, here's some advice from the UCLA Alzheimer's Research Center specifically for ϵ4s.

http://alzheimer.neurology.ucla.edu/Curcumin.html

“Data suggest that subjects with ϵ4 do not respond to DHA which may be due to oxidation. It is possible that Curcumin or other antioxidants may enable ApoE4 to respond to DHA. A combination of pure DHA with fish oil is recommended. 600-900 mg of DHA is recommended. You can start with a higher loading dose than drop down. Higher doses were used in the trial but there is saturation at 900 mg/day.” (Read the whole link; they suggest taking the fish oil on an empty stomach, 2-3 hours before meals, etc.)

Best of luck navigating these uncertain waters. Definitely do your own research. Trust me, we all know the frustration and fear. I've found incredible information and support learning from the dedicated people here.

Hey G,

Quick question: where did you come up with the idea that a high EPA/DHA ratio was best for ϵ4s? I've heard some cardiologists recommend that to treat CVD in ϵ4s and some neurologists (and researchers- like the UCLA team) recommend the opposite, high DHA:EPA ratio to prevent AD. Seems to be a little discrepancy there. Thanks for all of the amazing resources on safe salmon/sardines, etc. Priceless!

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Gilgamesh
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Re: Fish Oil

Postby Gilgamesh » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:54 am

Julie,

Nice summary of the status of the ? of fish oil supp. and ε4s! Thanks! --

1) A couple mice studies.

2) Theory by the UCLA people.

That's still not much, though; not enough for me supplement with it (and the UCLA people have, I believe, a financial stake in the curcumin supp. they think will make fish oil safe for ε4s -- but correct me if I'm wrong! Maybe they developed the pill and gave the patent away?) Plenty of AD model mice studies don't translate to humans, and the statement by the UCLA people is just a hopeful sort of "maybe" statement. But there is epidemiological evidence in humans that plant-based (high non-fish omega 3) diets correlate with much lower rates of AD, in all APOE genotypes. I get nearly 2 grams of omega-3 in the vegan part of my diet, and that's mostly from leafy stuff, not nuts. I'm considering adding a few walnuts.

Juliegee wrote:Hey G,

Quick question: where did you come up with the idea that a high EPA/DHA ratio was best for ϵ4s?


I didn't. :) It's only best for me, because of the aforementioned Gilgamesh-specific probs. :(

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Re: Fish Oil

Postby James » Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:30 am

Julie, thanks for the ref to the Michaelson paper. His lab has some interesting research in the past few years I hadn't seen!

I'm much like you in that I looked at the available evidence, took fish oil, stopped, started, and so on. I currently don't take fish oil but rely on quite a bit of ALA. Though I'm unsure if this is the best strategy, I haven't had the time to delve back into the n-3/E4 research, and I figured I'd keep this going for a while and get my n-3 status checked. These papers are definitely making it into my (seemingly endless) bin of papers to read for personal interest, though they might get bumped to the top. :-)

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Re: Fish Oil

Postby TCat » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:01 pm

Thank you all. I won't rush into getting fresh supply of Fish Oil until I consider everything you said here.

I was considering the UCLA protocol - DHA with fish oil, empty stomach, curcumin . I actualy started it already - sip of fish oil and MCT oil first thing in the morning together with Longvita curcumin and freshly crushed black peppers. Then I'd wait at least one hour before breakfast (steamed/sautéed veggies, egg bought directly from a small farm or tofu, berries).

Few years ago I was on high protein diet for 3 month - wanted to loose few pounds in a hurry. I did loose 7 pounds, but, even though I was not cheating much, I was only in borderline ketosis. With all the talk about ketogenic diet, I thought it would be better to just get ketones directly from MCT oil. After 12 hours of overnight fast brain should be hungry so I'll give it ketones and DHA to munch on, supplemented with curcumin and other anti-oxidants. Sounded like a good plan ;-)

I eat better than most people I know, but you would not know it looking at my cholesterol profile and inflammation markers. Few months before I found out about e4, I've decided to follow mostly vegetarian, low fat way of eating recommended by Dr Esselstyn, Dr McDougall, Dr. Fleming, Dr. Ornish, Dr Fuhrman, etc. to prevent heart disease. Now, even though it's been four months already, I am like a deer in a headlight, not quite sure which direction to go.

Well, I just poached fresh wild salmon. At least I know what's for lunch today.

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Re: Fish Oil

Postby Ski » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:54 pm

Hey TCat

I certainly feel your frustration. I too have tried various things trying to decide what's good for my body as the whole HFLC, my body tends to rebel against. I just redid my NMR after being lower fat, moderate carb and protein and will see what it says.

If that's bad or worse will go to a more vegan, lower fat approach next.


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