animal protein

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jgilberAZ
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Re: animal protein

Postby jgilberAZ » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:12 pm

This is a direct quote from the Mastering Diabetes PDF, above.

When eating a ketogenic diet, you are told to avoid carbohydrate-rich foods like fruits, starchy vegetables, legumes, and whole grains, and instead eat larger quantities of meat, dairy, leafy greens, non-starchy vegetables, nuts, seeds, and vegetable oils.
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Re: animal protein

Postby Julie G » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:13 am

In the part you mention, her opinion is that one must be doing a fairly extreme amount of day-long exercise to overcome the need for higher protein, a lot of walking and farming is her example. This would be a far cry from what most modern people in the industrialized world (your target audience?) can realistically incorporate, although I agree it's a good vision to lead us. The odd thing is that she mentions the Blue Zones specifically. I don't picture these people doing boatloads of strenuous exercise so much as being in more or less constant movement, but I haven't looked into it in any depth. Perhaps the majority really are farmers from sunup to sundown.

Good observation. Dr. B's recommendation for daily movement along with low protein recommendations is a GOAL with the acknowledgement that most people need more protein as they heal underlying damage and work towards this lifestyle. Dr. B seems to be working on addressing root causes whereas Dr. Lyon is dealing head on with an “unwell” population.
The other thing about her perspective here, if I understand it right, is that by 'lower protein' with exercise she would mean at least 30 grams per meal. That is her low protein, not what the anti-mTOR perspective would have it be. (Stay tuned for a another take on this.)

Listen again. It starts at 17.30. She clearly states that those who move more need LESS protein. The exception is athletes looking for recovery post-workout, but even then she says they can get away with less as they are stimulating muscle protein synthesis with movement. Certainly paradoxical. According to Dr. Lyon, the more you move the less protein you need. The description of 30 grams per meal is what she eats, not what Blue Zones people eat.
After finishing the talk with Dr. Lyon that you linked, I decided to move on to the researcher she learned from, whom she claims (true? I don't know) is the world expert in protein metabolism, Don Layman. This turned out to be very interesting. I'm not sure if you or Dr. Bredesen have seen these; if so, they'll be here for anyone else interested.

Thanks for this! It’s very interesting to see the significant divergence between Dr. Lyon and Layman. It's also interesting to think of insulin resistance starting in the muscles. This makes a sense to me as our muscles have the ability to store more glycogen than our liver. This also helps to explain how exercise upregulates mitochondria and promotes metabolic flexibility connecting lots of dots. This underscores the importance of strength training as we age as well as the importance of maintaining insulin sensitivity.

I personally appreciate of all of the animal protein discussions we’ve recently had on the site. This is a topic near and dear to my heart. I’m definitely one of those *along with MOST people* who needs higher amounts of protein. I have underlying GI stuff (SIBO despite repeated treatment) and CIRS (need to recheck levels.) When I drop protein too low, I become noticeably weaker and my complete protein on my comprehensive metabolic panel drops below the reference range. Gundry apparently uses this to gauge adequate protein intake. In addition to at least 4 miles of daily walking and running, I also do daily strength training and try to incorporate movement into my daily schedule. I’m working to reframe household chores into opportunities to be strong. ;) I’m also actively working to increase my protein from animal sources.

I suspect that many of the anti-aging effects from animal protein are really effects of a methionine imbalance. I’m using a nose-to-tail approach to avoid methionine excess, strategically incorporating organ meats and bone broth to balance muscle meats. The clearance of each molecule of excess methionine requires at least two molecules of glycine which can easily lead to an imbalanced amino acid profile if one only eats muscle meat. Glycine regulates macrophages, the immune cells that effect the primary inflammatory response. Hence, lower glycine levels create a greater vulnerability to inflammation, and other chronic conditions rooted in inflammation, including type 2 diabetes. See this rebuttal to a recent BJM paper correlating red meat with T2D.
I’m not sure what manual you're working on, but I'm sure wrestling with making all the variables both accurate and accessible to your target audience is a worthy part of your AD prevention protocol, XO.

Thanks! I’m helping Dr. B and his integrative physician wife, Dr. Aida LaSheen Bredesen, write the sequel to The End of Alzheimer’s which will feature a handbook on implementing the protocol. All of our recent protein chatter is helping us to better message this important topic. Thanks, all, for sharing your perspectives.

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Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:41 am

circular wrote:
Plumster wrote:Dr. Garth Davis:
Diabetes is caused by fat getting into muscle cells and damaging the cells ability to make insulin receptors.


Here's a good online source: https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/

According to muscle metabolism expert Dr. Lyon on the podcast Evolving Past Alzheimer's, fat getting into the muscle would be characteristic of sarcopenic obesity. The solution would be, at least in part, more strength training and the proper nutrition to build muscle, to include adequate leucine intake at the right time and without keeping mTOR chronically elevated by chronic caloric intake. While she's a proponent of the nutritional advantages of animal protein, especially with respect to muscle (and thus metabolic) health, she does help vegans achieve adequate leucine intake by proper combining of pea and rice protein. She emphasizes that metabolic derangement in muscle precedes the diseases of aging including insulin resistance. From this perspective, it's not the fat getting into the muscle that's causing diabetes, it's poor muscle metabolism causing insulin resistance and allowing fat into the muscle among other related issues.


Circular, I'm not sure if these are two separate issues on muscles and protein (I haven't spent enough time on the topic), but this blog article by Dr. Greger might be of interest here: https://nutritionfacts.org/2019/07/16/s ... 7b73820138

Is there anything we can do diet-wise to protect our aging muscles? Eat vegetables. Consuming recommended levels of vegetables was associated with basically cutting in half the odds of low muscle mass. Why? “[T]he alkalizing effects of vegetables may neutralize the mild metabolic acidosis” that occurs with age, when that little extra acid in our body facilitates the breakdown of muscle. I’ve discussed before how “[m]uscle wasting appears to be an adaptive response to acidosis.” (See my video Testing Your Diet with Pee and Purple Cabbage for more on this.) We appear to get a chronic low-grade acidosis with advancing age because our kidney function starts to decline and because we may be eating an acid-promoting diet, which means a diet high in fish, pork, chicken, and cheese, and low in fruits and vegetables. Beans and other legumes are the only major sources of protein that are alkaline instead of acid-forming. And indeed, a more plant-based diet—that is, a more alkaline diet—was found to be positively associated with muscle mass in women aged 18 to 79.
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Re: animal protein

Postby circular » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:00 am

Plumster wrote:Circular, I'm not sure if these are two separate issues on muscles and protein (I haven't spent enough time on the topic), but this blog article by Dr. Greger might be of interest here: https://nutritionfacts.org/2019/07/16/s ... 7b73820138

Is there anything we can do diet-wise to protect our aging muscles? Eat vegetables. Consuming recommended levels of vegetables was associated with basically cutting in half the odds of low muscle mass. Why? “[T]he alkalizing effects of vegetables may neutralize the mild metabolic acidosis” that occurs with age, when that little extra acid in our body facilitates the breakdown of muscle. I’ve discussed before how “[m]uscle wasting appears to be an adaptive response to acidosis.” (See my video Testing Your Diet with Pee and Purple Cabbage for more on this.) We appear to get a chronic low-grade acidosis with advancing age because our kidney function starts to decline and because we may be eating an acid-promoting diet, which means a diet high in fish, pork, chicken, and cheese, and low in fruits and vegetables. Beans and other legumes are the only major sources of protein that are alkaline instead of acid-forming. And indeed, a more plant-based diet—that is, a more alkaline diet—was found to be positively associated with muscle mass in women aged 18 to 79.

Plumster I seem to have missed your reply here before. I appreciate the plant perspective on this that i was unaware of. Knowing nothing about ph, I suspect it's quite possible that a diet that has higher protein + high intakes of vegetables might keep ph well enough in balance, and that going too far to either extreme could lead to problems. I was vegan for a while some years back and did very poorly when it comes to muscle health and generally, even in the absence of the animal protein or any kidney issues. So I think there's more to this.

I'm curious, do you have a link to a good paper about the acid/alkaline issue? I see it come up a lot, with people listing which foods are alkaline after digestion and which not, but I've never known what the science guiding this approach to food selection is and where it lies on the evidence base spectrum (not that everything I do has a good evidence base!). I have to say, a video of Dr. Greger won't help me. It's not that I'm not interested in his ideas, and not trying to attack him personally, but for some reason I have a really hard time with his delivery style.
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Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:00 pm

Hi Circular,

If I find something relevant and scientific about acid/alkaline foods, I'll be sure to post it in this thread.

I agree: Dr. Greger's intonation gets annoying. One can always read the transcript of his video instead! :)
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