Ketosis in a bottle

[circular]

I posted elsewhere a question about keto adaptation but never got, to my awareness, an explanation among the answers. I'm still confused. I've read that it can take months to over a year to get 'keto adapted', but it seems many if not most use 'keto adapted' to mean you can produce endogenous ketones in the nutritional range. So if I can produce the ketones at > .5 am I keto adapted, or are there other measurements that confirm keto adaptation, like proof of no insulin resistance, or are there other physiological signs needed to be certain of keto adaptation beyond the > .5 BHB, which I find easy.

(My only problem has been bad avocados. In my stressed and time-starved life of late, when I can't access good avocados I revert to bananas, then when avocados are good I go back to ketosis. Isn't that hunter-gatherer of me?)

[TheresaB]

I'm still confused. I've read that it can take months to over a year to get 'keto adapted', but it seems many if not most use 'keto adapted' to mean you can produce endogenous ketones in the nutritional range. So if I can produce the ketones at > .5 am I keto adapted, or are there other measurements that confirm keto adaptation, like proof of no insulin resistance, or are there other physiological signs needed to be certain of keto adaptation beyond the > .5 BHB, which I find easy.

I define ketosis as producing endogenous ketones in the nutritional range. I think of being keto adapted as straying into glucose burning, like early man during fall season when apples were ripening, then going back to burning ketones quickly and easily without experiencing keto flu symptoms after the food supply dries up.

I understand that the longer a person has been keto adapted, the longer they can stray to glucose burning then easily return to ketone burning.

I don’t know if there’s a “finish line” for being fat/keto adapted. In May 2015, I switched to a low carb diet with intermittent fasting to encourage ketosis. I wasn’t measuring my ketones at the time but I could tell things changed and biomarkers confirmed I was in ketosis. In December 2016, 1.5 years after changing my diet, I did my first annual 7 day fast. My ketones rose rapidly, additionally confirming being keto adapted, yet I still had some hunger and energy issues during the fast. Last month, 2.5 years after changing my diet, I did my second 7 day fast and was surprised that the experience was notably different with regard to the hunger and energy issues, which told me my body continued to fat adapt!

Insulin probably does have something to do with it. Insulin, the fat storage hormone, and leptin, the satiety hormone, "hold hands" so when insulin goes down the body's drive to store fat lowers, and leptin also goes down so the body's desire to eat isn't as great.

[Tincup]

Circ,

I agree with Theresa. My definition of being keto or fat adapted is to be able to easily "fuel switch" from glucose to fat/ketones without any issues.

I think the timeline for this is individual. For some, like Theresa & Stavia, they have done this gradually without experiencing "keto-flu". In my case, I adapted in 2009 with the "Atkins" strategy of limiting carbs to 20g/day with adequate protein for several weeks. I did experience keto flu.

I also agree with Theresa that there is an "acute" adaptation and then a slower adaptation that can continue for a long time. An example of this is my friend, Dr. Mark Cucuzzella, who has tested to be able to burn 1.9 g fat/minute. Mark (who has run Boston 30 times in under 3 hours), converted to a low carb diet a number of years ago, because of insulin resistance. However, you can see a huge improvement in his numbers between his 2016 and 2017 tests, years after going low carb.

[circular]

Oh makes sense that there’s a keto adaptation spectrum as you both describe. Thanks.

[Orangeblossom]

I think keto adapted simply means that your body has learnt to use fat as it's main source of energy instead of sugar. Being a fat burner? And then can be flexible and have some carbs at times...

[J11]

I do not like commenting on this as there are some very knowledge ketoers here on the forum, though I will give this a try.
If the blood glucose level of someone who were not keto-adapted fell into the 40s, diabetic coma could result.

Someone who had been fully keto-adapted could have glucose levels into the 30s or 20s (as seen in examples of extreme famine) or even into single digits for obese people who had been starved for two months and then injected with insulin.

[BethJ]

I am so confused! New here and following the Bredeson Protocal as prevention. I have 2 copies of the gene. I am 57. I fast 3x weekly for 18hrs ea. For mild ketosis as suggested by my physician. I check my ketone blood levels first thing every morning and it ranges between 0.2 and 0.3. I then experimented to test at 15 hrs into my fast and my levels were 0.7 and 0.8 which I understand is too high and should be at 0.5. So confused about what time of day to test?
I would also appreciate anyone’s advice on eating beans and legumes. I Am vegan and it is a no-no on the ketogenic diet except in small amounts once in a while, leaving nothing to eat once you eliminate grains. How important is it to add eggs , wild salmon and grass fed beef to my diet? Should I be eliminating beans and legumes totally, especially because the starch does not encourage ketosis? I am a volume eater, 3-4 ounces of salmon or meat doesn’t cut it for for me even with my huge amounts of veggies. Used to love my steak, but 4ou. Is a tease! Any advice on time of day to test ketones and vegan diet?
Has anyone experienced ketosis as a result of bulletproof coffee (MCT & GHEE) As suggested by Dave Asprey? It did seem to directly correlate in my higher numbers
Thanks so much for your input, I am 4 weeks in and needless to say, a lot to digest!
Bethj

[TheresaB]

I would also appreciate anyone’s advice on eating beans and legumes.

Beans and legumes are a double whammy. First they’re very carby and you are trying to maintain ketosis. Secondly, they’re high in lectins which tends to raise inflammatory levels and since you’ve read Dr Bredesen’s book, you understand why inflammation is bad.

To aid in implementing Dr Bredesen’s protocol, my husband and I adopted Dr Gundry’s dietary recommendations. This wiki link provides information on Dr Gundry. https://www.apoe4.info/wiki/Dr_Gundry%27s_Protocol FYI Dr Bredesen and Dr Gundry are friends and provided endorsements to each other's books. Dr Gundry's food lists are linked to the wiki. He has specific dietary recommendations for ApoE4s, also discussed in the wiki.

My husband and I follow Dr Gundry’s Plant Paradox dietary recommendations, we are nearly vegan and ketogenic/metabolically flexible. We eat lots of veggies, olive oil, an avocado a day, nuts, moderated levels of resistant starches, and adequate protein in the form of wild caught white fish, wild caught shell fish, omega-3 or pastured eggs, hemp hearts, grain-free tempeh (fermented soy so the lectins are destroyed) hemp tofu, the quorn products allowed on his list, and Hillary’s root veggie burger. Plus there’s already lots of protein in the nuts and veggies. As Dr Gundry says, as a society we tend to be over-proteinized,

Dr Gundry allows his vegans and vegetarians to eat legumes, chick-peas and lentils as long as they’re pressure cooked to remove the lectins, but you’re still left with the carb component making it difficult to maintain ketosis. We don’t eat those foods, except for my last birthday, as a treat I got chana masala made with pressure cooked chick peas.

[BethJ]

Thank you so much! That really helped. I wasn’t sure about Dr. Gundry but see him mentioned here often. Where do you find hemp tofu?

[TheresaB]

Where do you find hemp tofu?

We buy at Natural Grocers, but probably also available at other stores like Whole Foods.