Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

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Gilgamesh
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Post by Gilgamesh »

Hubbs wrote:Also now by doing glucose home testing I learned that my morning glucose after 12hour fasting is 20+ points higher than what was at bedtime (80-90), and it continue rise up slowly through out morning till lunch time. So my body compensate fasting with making more glucose. Do any of you have had this situation before you are Keto adapted? Would eat breakfast but skip lunch helps to stabilize glucose level and still get to keto?
I've experienced the same thing. In my case I'm pretty sure it's rising cortisol jump-starting gluconeogenesis. (I'm still not keto-adapted, though being so isn't my goal.)

Lance, about the thyroid: excellent points but in the CR world, low thyroid values, and feeling cold, are the goal, since it's a sign the body is aging more slowly -- lowered body temperature, in fact, is pretty clearly causal here. [1]

G

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3117452/
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Post by Julie G »

Exactly Julie. The huge individual variation is IMO telling us that the mitochondrial defect IS hackable. Something in my body is (partially probably, not completely) compensating. Yours wasn't until you found the work-around and now it is.
Or some of us have genetic predispositions or protections against our inherent cerebral glucose deficiency. For instance, I suspect I have some GLUT1 issues I haven’t pinned down yet. On the other hand, I suspect you (and others here) have some protections. Hence, some of us need to "hack" harder ;)

Circ, I think you’re correct. Some parts of our brains NEED glucose exclusively, maybe 35%? I’m guessing that figure based on my notes from Dr. Cunnane’s talk below. FWIW, the minuscule amount he’s suggesting we achieve, 0.3-0.5 mmol/L, is to compensate for our cerebral glucose deficiency not to entirely replace glucose as our primary fuel. Even those of us who are leto-adapted are typically reporting very low levels, below 2.0 mmol/L. From my understanding this isn’t an either/or proposition, but rather a both/and.
His research has demonstrated that ketones can maintain up to 65% of brain fuel requirements when glucose can’t be utilized effectively. As Martha shared earlier, he stated that using ketones does NOT inhibit your ability to be able to use glucose simultaneously or at a later time. Babies begin life in ketosis. We all shift to a ketotic state during sleep. Our brains are very well adapted to using ketones and shifting between using glucose and ketones as fuel.
I think the carb night suggestion was more of a metabolism "re-set" rather than a glucose re-feeding period. The ability to seamlessly shift back and forth between different fuel substrates is indicative of optimal health- remember Russ's variability theme? Additionally, we have lots of suggestions that the E4 allele was designed for long periods of fasting which would have naturally resulted in ketosis. IMHO, the "hacks" we're working on with dietary/lifestyle ketosis should be seen as a means to restore a broken system to regain that metallic flexibility.
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

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Hubbs some of us use a meter and strips for blood ketones that works like the glucose one. The strips are very expensive.
I'm not sure what's going on with you but your body is still in flux right? You are still losing weight? If so wait until you stabilise before you really try hack the details.
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Post by Stavia »

Correct Lance. Gluconeogenesis. And yes some tissues Circ are glucose dependent as Lance says.
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

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Hubbs wrote: What other ways to know if I have some level of Keto?
Precision Xtra serum Glucose/Ketone meter. Ketone strips are expensive ~ $2.25-2.50/strip on eBay.
Hubbs wrote:Also now by doing glucose home testing I learned that my morning glucose after 12hour fasting is 20+ points higher than what was at bedtime (80-90), and it continue rise up slowly through out morning till lunch time. So my body compensate fasting with making more glucose. Do any of you have had this situation before you are Keto adapted? Would eat breakfast but skip lunch helps to stabilize glucose level and still get to keto?
Probably "dawn phenomena" along with physiologic insulin resistance. Dawn is what G is talking about. Liver starts making glycogen around 4 AM to get you ready for the day. https://www.google.com/search?q=dawn+ph ... 8&oe=utf-8 Physiologic IR happens is part of being keto. Essentially body shunts whatever glucose to the brain - that is the muscles don't use it. https://www.google.com/search?q=physiol ... 8&oe=utf-8 Bottom line - if you are keto, I wouldn't worry about it.
Hubbs wrote: I am confused what is best for my game plan. On diabetes related website it says skipping breakfast will result in higher glucose level or higher post-meal spikes for the rest of the day. I did get glucose reading at 149. 2-hour after starting lunch. Off cause, I am not sure how accurate my Accu-Check Nano meter is. This morning upon rising I repeated the glucose test three times within 1 minute and I got three different readings - 101, 96. 91.
Physilogic IR can also cause spikes whenever you do eat carbs. There can be meter variation. If you look at what is required by FDA for a home diabetic meter, the differences we are seeing may be within the error band of the meter. Dr. Bernstein http://www.diabetes-book.com/ Has looked at many different meters for accuracy. You can search on what meter he recommends.

I fast 22 hours/day & rarely test after meals anymore, but my A1C from Dec was 4.7%. My wife who fasts 15 hours/day had 4.4%.
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Post by Hubbs »

Many thanks to those of you taking time to offer me some feedback and advices!

Gilgamesh, did you change diet or exercise or fasting period to correct rising glucose level throughout morning?

Stavia, yes I have been losing weight steadily. Now at 113 lb. (height 5'5" and waist 27") I am not sure how much more to lose because part of me starts to look boney yet there is still visceral fat. If I stay the course I will be 110 in 2-3 weeks.

GeorgeN, I checked out physiologic insulin resistance today. I should verify if I am keto. Its great that both you and your wife has such low A1c. Were your A1c ever as high as 5.7? If so how long it took you to such low level? I read that people with A1c in the high 5 range has higher CVDs risks than people with A1c above 6. I am surprised about that and sure want to get myself out of that glucose range.

I learned some people here eat breakfast but skip lunch. What are the reasons for one choose to skip breakfast or skip lunch or skip dinner?
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All advices appreciated :)
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Post by Gilgamesh »

Hubbs, no, I haven't solved it yet -- except I noticed that pigging out on macadamia nuts before bed lowers my morning glucose! Only did it a few times, so might not be a robust finding. But I secretly hope it is, because, man, do I love macadamia nuts.

G
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

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Hubbs I skip breakfast so I can use the sleeping time as part of the fast.
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Post by Julie G »

Oh, a brand new paper by Dr. Cunnane! I'd love to see full-text.

Can ketones compensate for deteriorating brain glucose uptake during aging? Implications for the risk and treatment of Alzheimer's disease
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26766547
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Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

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Cunnane_et_al-2016-Annals_of_the_New_York_Academy_of_Sciences.pdf
Interesting, but no mention of ApoE4.

Moderator note - I deleted the attached paper (DOI: 10.1111/nyas.12999) because our copyright infringement policy prohibits it. Members in jurisdictions for which access to Sci-Hub is legal may want to search for the paper there.
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