Qs re: homocysteine-lowering vitamins

[Plumster]

Interesting about supplementation with PC!

Yeah, sorry, I just made up the phrase "pre-folates" without thinking too much of the term. Thanks again, Susan!

[xactly]

Chris Masterjohn has written a few posts on methylation, where Glycine / Collagen and Creatine seem like useful supplements. Right now, I just take Creatine.

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/08/ ... ith-mthfr/

apod: Thanks so much for referencing this podcast with Chris Masterjohn. Like SGW811, I am heterozygous for MTHFR C677T, and I am trying to increase methylation while simultaneously driving down homocysteine. I have looked at charts on the methylation cycle many times. Chris Masterjohn's explanation of the cycle on this podcast is finally helping me make sense of what I should be doing.

I think I am going to implement his recommendations, but I'll probably add 1g of methylcobalamin to the 400 mcg of L5MTHF. I am already taking creatine, but I will add choline and marine collagen for glycine. I'll run some tests in 3 months or so and see if things are heading in the right direction.

[xactly]

What do you all think of Bill Walsh's approach of checking whole blood histamine levels to see if someone is an undermethylator, and therefore should not be given methylfolate, overmethylator or normal? I'm seeing a Walsh Institute trained doctor tomorrow for help with methylation and homocysteine. I have several MTHFR mutations and am homozygous for COMT met met and have been unable to take methyldonors so far. I take hydroxocobalamin B12, as recommended by Amy Yasko, and try to get lots of folate in my diet. I'll report back with what the doctor recommends in my case.

Plumster: I admire Bill Walsh's work. Last September, I decided to take a test panel from DHA Laboratories to see where I was on copper, zinc balance, histamine (methylation) and kryptopyrroles. The panel included a brief phone consultation with a Walsh-trained practitioner.

Since I am heterozygous for C677T, I wasn't surprised that my histamine level was high. I wasn't taking any steps at the time to address methylation, so I found it useful that my histamine level corroborated what I expected to see from my genotype. I do want to note, though, that even though my histamine level was high, I was not suffering from seasonal allergies, itchy eyes, etc. Several people in my family have problems with allergies, but you can (like me) run high histamine levels without those symptoms. I have no idea why.

Since histamine is metabolized by methyl groups, Walsh's protocol diagnoses people with high histamine levels as undermethylators. The Walsh practitioner I spoke with was immensely helpful with a supplement plan for copper/zinc balance and kryptopyrroles; however, his approach to undermethylation was to prescribe high doses of methionine, along with several other supplements. I questioned whether the methionine would increase homocysteine because of C677T and APOE4 polymorphisms, and he was clearly not trained to deal with those questions. (I guess most undermethylators tolerate methionine well.)

I started on the other parts of the plan but wrestled with the methionine recommendation. I decided to give methionine a trial, starting in March. I tested my homocysteine a couple of weeks ago, and it had climbed 3 points from my previous test in December. I immediately dropped the methionine, found this thread, and have started Chris Masterjohn's approach for addressing undermethylation. I'm continuing to follow the Walsh practitioner's recommendations for copper/zinc balance and kryptopyrroles. Hope that helps.

[Plumster]

I started on the other parts of the plan but wrestled with the methionine recommendation. I decided to give methionine a trial, starting in March. I tested my homocysteine a couple of weeks ago, and it had climbed 3 points from my previous test in December. I immediately dropped the methionine, found this thread, and have started Chris Masterjohn's approach for addressing undermethylation. I'm continuing to follow the Walsh practitioner's recommendations for copper/zinc balance and kryptopyrroles. Hope that helps.

Thank you, your post is really helpful. I am now wondering if I should cancel my appointment with the Walsh-trained doctor. My insurance will not cover this visit and my goal is to lower homocysteine and raise B12. I know that the Walsh Program uses B vitamins, zinc, anti-oxidants, SAMe and methionine for undermethylators (I suspect I am one). But now that I think about it, methionine really can't be a good idea. I don't understand the Walsh Program here. I wonder what my best move is at this point in order to raise my B12 (borderline) and lower my homocysteine (9.9). I tried Yasko's program, but I am low lithium and when I try to supplement with very small dosages of lithium orotate, my eyes hurt (which I take to be a bad sign). I haven't listened to the audio mentioned above by Masterjohn, but I will as soon as I can find a window of time.

Xactly, would you be willing to share the dosages for the various supplements that your Walsh doctor recommended? Regarding seasonal allergies: I have been struggling with allergies every spring and summer for the last 10 years. Last summer, I became a vegan and started focusing on my health and getting the vitamins and nutrients I need. Result? My allergies are completely gone! Completely.

[xactly]

IXactly, would you be willing to share the dosages for the various supplements that your Walsh doctor recommended? Regarding seasonal allergies: I have been struggling with allergies every spring and summer for the last 10 years. Last summer, I became a vegan and started focusing on my health and getting the vitamins and nutrients I need. Result? My allergies are completely gone! Completely.

Plumster: Awesome news about becoming a vegan and eliminating your allergies!

The Walsh Optimal Ranges for the tests I took are:

• Zinc, Plasma: 90-135 ug/dL
  Histamine: 40-70 ng/mL
  Copper, Serum: 70-110 ug/dL
  Kryptopyrroles: 0-10 mcg/dL

There was no reference to age/gender adjustment for the ranges.

My zinc was lower, copper slightly higher, histamine higher and kryptopyrroles higher than optimum. Here is what was recommended:

Breakfast

• 100 mg B6 (pyridoxine form)
  100 mg B6 (P5P form)
  1000 mg Vitamin C
  1000 mg L-methionine

Dinner

• 1000 mg Vitamin C
  70 mg zinc picolinate
  100 mcg molybdenum
  1000 mg L-methionine
  1000 mg evening primrose oil

Bedtime

• 1000 mg calcium plus 500 mg of magnesium

Here are some notes about why those particular supplements were recommended. Some do double-duty:

• B6 (both forms): lowers kryptopyrroles (do not take P5P after lunch, since it can disrupt sleep)
  Vitamin C: is a cofactor that helps flush copper and provides antioxidant benefits
  Zinc picolinate: helps flush copper and lower kryptopyrroles
  Molybdenum: helps flush copper
  L-methionine: increases methylation
  Calcium: increases methylation
  Magnesium: increases methylation
  Evening primrose oil: lowers kryptopyrroles

As previously mentioned, I have stopped the methionine and switched to Chris Masterjohn's recommendation to address undermethylation. I also discontinued the calcium, and I am taking 2g of magnesium threonate at bedtime instead. I am uncertain what to do about supplemental calcium. I am concerned about osteoporosis, but supplemental calcium seems to significantly increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

[Plumster]

I am uncertain what to do about supplemental calcium. I am concerned about osteoporosis, but supplemental calcium seems to significantly increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

Thank you so much for sharing all this info. It's also interesting to see the recs for what to take when.

Regarding calcium: Dr, Michael Gregor recommends sources like broccoli, arugula, and collard greens for calcium. Not all dark leafy greens work equally. There's something about the oxalates in spinach, for example, that prevents full absorption of calcium.

Yes, it's true, calcium supplements are generally not recommended.

[SGW811]

So 6 months later, my homocysteine down to 9, from being stuck at 10 for a year, previously at 13. Can't seem to get it any lower. Any thoughts? Added Phosphatidyl Choline, per Susan J.'s recommendation, but my stomach couldn't tolerate the creatine powder.
My current supplements are:
1. Vitamin D3 2000 IU
2. P-5-P 50 mg (Coenzyme B-6 + Mg Bisglycinate)
3. Methyl B-12 1,000 mcg (methylcobalamin)
4. Methyl Folate 400 mcg ((6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate glucosamine salt)
5. Theracurmin HP 300-600 mg (providing 30% curcumin 90-180 mg)
6. TMG Betaine – 1000 mg
7. Benfotiamine with Thiamine 100 mg (Vitamin B1)
8. Super Ubiquinol CoQ10 100 mg
9. Sunflower Lecithin 2400 mg (380 mg Phosphatidyl Choline)
10. Ashwagandha 500 mg
I'm otherwise healthy, a normal height and weight, exercise daily, no inflammation markers, no diabetes, Calcium scoring scan of 0, very high HDL (120ish), normal LDL (110ish), eating lots of healthy fats. One vice remains binging on sugars occasionally.
Additionally I did suffer DVTs in my left calf this summer (probably a complication of varicella -- I had chicken pox; plus I'm Factor V Leiden heterozygous). Spent 3 months on a blood thinner and my doctor now wants me on 81 mg. aspirin (baby aspirin) daily. I've been on it about a week. I'm also on an antibiotic for an infection in a bone in my mouth below a root-canal treated tooth. (Could the infection and/or antiobiotic -- penicillin -- or even the aspirin -- have had any effect on my homocysteine result?)
I've read online that aspirin can counteract the B vitamins so I'm concerned about having to take it.
As an e4 homozygote I remain concerned about my homocysteine level. Should I "up" my B vitamins? My methylfolate? I'm heterozygous for MTHFR so have been taking 400 mcg rather than 800 mcg.
Any advice appreciated.

[SusanJ]

Any advice appreciated.

Have you done labs to see if your folate and B12 levels are in range? That might provide some extra information.

And antibiotics / infections affect everything.

With antibiotics, your gut just will not be working as well, so one thought is that you're not absorbing things right. Particularly important for B12. While you're on antibiotics, you could try a folate/B12 lozenge such as https://www.seekinghealth.com/active-b1 ... 0-lozenges, which will be absorbed in your mouth, not your gut.

You could also try adding glycine, which is another thing that Masterjohn recommends in helping to balance methyl groups.

Don't give up. It's all inter-related and gut health is critical. And even though your inflammation markers are normal, the antibiotics are doing things to throw your body out of balance that none of us really understand.

[Julie G]

SGW811, I'll add a few thoughts to the mix. Your folate supplementation is a bit low. 800mcg is a typical starting point for those trying to lower homocysteine... unless otherwise indicated. Also, how is your Omega-3 status? NONE of the B vitamins work without adequate Omega-3 support.

[SGW811]

Thanks Susan J. and Julie G., I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.