Dr. Benjamin Bikman - 'Insulin vs. Glucagon: The relevance of dietary protein'

[apod]

I came across a talk this afternoon with an interesting look at the ratio of Insulin : Glucagon in the context of a Western Diet vs a Low Carb diet with moderate protein consumption. While depletion of oxaloacetate is at the biochemical basis of ketone production, Bikman makes an interesting case for glucagon being a hormonal driver. He also makes the claim that the low I:G ratio in and of itself elicits many of the benefits seen during the fasted state, which isn't as affected by protein consumption as I'd previous suspected. This sort of pushes in the opposite direction as Ron Rosedale's take on an ideal low-carb diet's macros. (I'd be very curious to see how the I:G ratio is modified by free amino acids.)



Just looking at the numbers, the I:G ratios looked about like:

* Western Diet + Carb-rich meal: ~70
* Western Diet: ~4.0
* Low Carb Diet: ~1.3
* Low Carb Diet + Protein-rich meal: ~1.3
* Fasting: ~0.8
* Fasting + Protein: ~0.5

[Kenny4/4]

I came across a talk this afternoon with an interesting look at the ratio of Insulin : Glucagon in the context of a Western Diet vs a Low Carb diet with moderate protein consumption. While depletion of oxaloacetate is at the biochemical basis of ketone production, Bikman makes an interesting case for glucagon being a hormonal driver. He also makes the claim that the low I:G ratio in and of itself elicits many of the benefits seen during the fasted state, which isn't as affected by protein consumption as I'd previous suspected. This sort of pushes in the opposite direction as Ron Rosedale's take on an ideal low-carb diet's macros. (I'd be very curious to see how the I:G ratio is modified by free amino acids.)



Just looking at the numbers, the I:G ratios looked about like:

* Western Diet + Carb-rich meal: ~70
* Western Diet: ~4.0
* Low Carb Diet: ~1.3
* Low Carb Diet + Protein-rich meal: ~1.3
* Fasting: ~0.8
* Fasting + Protein: ~0.5

Thank you! What a great presentation .

* Western Diet + Carb-rich meal: ~70

Note: Should read * Western Diet + Protein -rich meal: ~70

It has helped justify some of the pain of Intermittent fasting .

My concern is with his idea of adding more protein to the low-carb high fat diet. He mentions that the protein oxidizes fat to help us burn it. That makes me think of oxidized LDL =bad and oxidized fats in general. I am probably making a leap but I don't see it explained any further. So for now I know I don't know . I do know I will be avoiding this though = * Western Diet + Protein -rich meal: ~70
Thank you

[TheresaB]

I came across a talk this afternoon with an interesting look at the ratio of Insulin : Glucagon

I was there when he gave that talk, fascinating! He's VERY interesting.

Here's his talk from last year https://denversdietdoctor.com/dr-benjam ... brown-fat/

I can't wait to hear his talk next year. And OBTW, here's his website: http://www.insuliniq.com/

[apod]

Note: Should read * Western Diet + Protein -rich meal: ~70

Or perhaps, "Western Diet + Carb-rich & Protein-rich meal" would have been a better description, yet. My thought process was that the difference in I:G was related more to the difference in carbs over the meal. From a western-diet background, a high-carb, yet low-protein meal seems like it would still score fairly high, while a protein-rich, yet low-carb meal doesn't seem like it would score as high as basal insulin does decrease after several hours. Although... perhaps from a low-carb background, a single high-carb but low-protein meal might not score that high either.

It'd be interesting to see the I:G ratio of a high carb / low protein meal for the Western pattern diet to see how much the effect is compounded by protein, and the I:G ratio for a high carb / low protein meal for the Low-Carb diet to see how much the ratio is attenuated by higher glucagon, lower insulin secretion, and higher insulin sensitivity.

[Kenny4/4]

Note: Should read * Western Diet + Protein -rich meal: ~70

Or perhaps, "Western Diet + Carb-rich & Protein-rich meal" would have been a better description, yet. My thought process was that the difference in I:G was related more to the difference in carbs over the meal. From a western-diet background, a high-carb, yet low-protein meal seems like it would still score fairly high, while a protein-rich, yet low-carb meal doesn't seem like it would score as high as basal insulin does decrease after several hours. Although... perhaps from a low-carb background, a single high-carb but low-protein meal might not score that high either.

It'd be interesting to see the I:G ratio of a high carb / low protein meal for the Western pattern diet to see how much the effect is compounded by protein, and the I:G ratio for a high carb / low protein meal for the Low-Carb diet to see how much the ratio is attenuated by higher glucagon, lower insulin secretion, and higher insulin sensitivity.

I agree I would like to see a:
Western Diet +High Carb- rich meal -probably pretty bad ? maybe not?
High Carb+ Low Protein ??
He seems to be missing these.

I wonder
What is the ideal I:G ratio?
What longevity and or prevention would it provide?

On a somewhat related N=1 note-
I will say you can spike your glucose levels by eating a very protein rich low carb diet.
I was bio hacking my Blood Pressure 15-20 years ago and noticed that my glucose level would stay at 90-100 all day on a high protein low carb diet. If I drank a Coke it would drop to 75 quickly and stay there. It was kind of counter intuitive but it makes sense now. A high carb low protein vegan diet always gave me a good low 80's fasting glucose at my annual physical. I kind of stopped bio hacking as a vegan diet with a little meat from fishing and hunting trips always kept my BP normal.

[apod]

On a somewhat related N=1 note-
I will say you can spike your glucose levels by eating a very protein rich low carb diet.
I was bio hacking my Blood Pressure 15-20 years ago and noticed that my glucose level would stay at 90-100 all day on a high protein low carb diet. If I drank a Coke it would drop to 75 quickly and stay there. It was kind of counter intuitive but it makes sense now. A high carb low protein vegan diet always gave me a good low 80's fasting glucose at my annual physical. I kind of stopped bio hacking as a vegan diet with a little meat from fishing and hunting trips always kept my BP normal.

I agree -- I get the same effect, if I do a high protein breakfast, I'm looking at a level around 90... throw on some coffee, bumping up cortisol / GNG and I might be 95. Throw on lunch or poor sleep and I'm pushing north of 100 all day. I've seen the levels jump up when I might be coming down with a cold, and I can also get up here with exercise, from a low pre-exercise serum level. If I skip the protein-rich breakfast, workout, then continue fasting, I can drop down into the low 70s (and feel fine.)

From what I understand, lower levels of glucose might be associated with higher mortality, and paradoxically still capable of glycation via higher methylglyoxal production. So there's a weird sort of U-curve. I've also read the argument that ~100mg/dL is the optimal spot for average glucose. (That said, I do like the idea of larger daily fasts and lower protein consumption to drive insulin / average glucose lower -- as long as muscle mass / glutathione is preserved, lower does seem better to me.)

[aphorist]

My concern is with his idea of adding more protein to the low-carb high fat diet. He mentions that the protein oxidizes fat to help us burn it. That makes me think of oxidized LDL =bad and oxidized fats in general. I am probably making a leap but I don't see it explained any further. So for now I know I don't know . I do know I will be avoiding this though = * Western Diet + Protein -rich meal: ~70
Thank you

He's talking about oxidizing lipids in the electron transport chain/TCA cycle. Oxidized LDL would be an issue of free radicals modifying and LDL particle. He's talking about burning lipids for energy, not free radicals.

I don't agree w/ everything this guy says, because I think his primary audience are the Standard American Diet people who are feeding on McDonald's/KFC and sedentary office workers who eat takeout food 3x a day.

[aphorist]

What is the ideal I:G ratio?

When he got to that 70 figure on insulin in his presentation, I practically threw up my hands and said, "Well what the hell do you expect it to be after a meal on a postprandial basis?" Of course insulin spikes madly after a meal to deal with the influx of carbs/protein.

Here's a better question: What should the I:G Ratio be AND WHEN?

Here's a thought: Eat once a day and not 5 times a day.

Problem solved. Got nothing to do w/ needing fats vs. carbs. Just don't eat all the time.

[Kenny4/4]

My concern is with his idea of adding more protein to the low-carb high fat diet. He mentions that the protein oxidizes fat to help us burn it. That makes me think of oxidized LDL =bad and oxidized fats in general. I am probably making a leap but I don't see it explained any further. So for now I know I don't know . I do know I will be avoiding this though = * Western Diet + Protein -rich meal: ~70
Thank you

He's talking about oxidizing lipids in the electron transport chain/TCA cycle. Oxidized LDL would be an issue of free radicals modifying and LDL particle. He's talking about burning lipids for energy, not free radicals.

I don't agree w/ everything this guy says, because I think his primary audience are the Standard American Diet people who are feeding on McDonald's/KFC and sedentary office workers who eat takeout food 3x a day.

Got it. Thank you for the explanation.

I see the Fatty acid oxidation process produces a lot of energy production co enzymes, transfers a lot of electrons around, does a lot of good work for the mitochondria and can be recycled many times. Wow! what an amazingly complicated process. I can usually follow everything I read and know what is going on conceptually or mechanically. Not so here.

Fat looks like a better energy pathway than glucose? I wonder but don't know?
What do you think?

[Kenny4/4]

What is the ideal I:G ratio?

When he got to that 70 figure on insulin in his presentation, I practically threw up my hands and said, "Well what the hell do you expect it to be after a meal on a postprandial basis?" Of course insulin spikes madly after a meal to deal with the influx of carbs/protein.

Here's a better question: What should the I:G Ratio be AND WHEN?

Here's a thought: Eat once a day and not 5 times a day.

Problem solved. Got nothing to do w/ needing fats vs. carbs. Just don't eat all the time.

a thought: Eat once a day and not 5 times a day

Agreed! Or maybe every other day? I am working on the once a day right now. At 16/8 and an occasional 22/2.

nothing to do w/ needing fats vs. carbs. Just don't eat all the time.

So using fat or carbs for fuel doesn't matter ? fat -protein-carb ratios don't mean diddly? Please explain?